First of all I'll start off by saying that I can respect why some would go for Rex.  He did put up some very strong performances.  In fact, if you look at Rex on his best day compared to Kyle than Rex has looked better in the past.  If you look at Rex on his worst day compared to Kyle on his worst day (in Cincy) than Kyle also put up a worse performance.  But Rex is simply not our guy.

I said before last season started that I expected Rex to struggle.  It's the unknown effect that allowed him to shine.  There was a point in time when defenses didn't know his strengths and weaknesses and that allowed him to put up some big games.  Then when the carpet seemed to get pulled out from under him, it's because teams had film to study... knew what he could do well... and knew what he couldn't.  They took away what he could do well and gave him the plays he couldn't do well... and he clearly struggled.  I knew that and I said I would stand by Rex on 1 condition...

The condition I stated was that I didn't want to see multiple fumbled snaps.  I clearly did see that.  The reason I chose that was because it's a very simple thing to fix.  He just needed to hold his hands in a different position when accepting the ball.  It's a very easy thing to practice and get right... but you have to work at it and practice it to get it right.  This came after a season of multiple fumbled snaps and I felt it would be a good measure of his ability to learn.

In order to fix the fumbled snap problem Rex had to do a few things...
a.  He had to recognize that this was an area he had to get better at.
b.  He had to figure out what he could do better.
c.  He had to practice to make that thing better.

Those 3 steps are essential to fixing any problem... and this was a simple problem to fix.  Other problems that he has... well they arn't so simple to fix.  There are more steps to it... and some of it can only be learned on the field as opposed to simply practicing it.  However... those 3 steps are in the equation.

If he can't fix the fumbled snaps then he can't fix anything.  Those great games you saw from him will never happen again.  Defenses study the film and know what they have to do to prevent those games.  Teams will always make him play to his weaknesses... unless they have an extrordinarily dumb DC.  In addition to that, you also know that Rex will always continue to struggle with the elements of his game that he struggled with in the past.

The hope with whichever QB we choose is that they will improve.  Neither are to the point we would want a starting QB to be.  We want the guy that can win now, and get better to win more dominantly in the future.

That guy is Kyle Orton.

We currently hear reports from the Bears that in practice these 2 QB's are in a dead heat.  In the past this wasn't so.  Rex previously was fairly clearly better than Kyle at the QB position.  Why is this?  Because Kyle has been able to do the abc's previously stated.  He recognized the areas of his game where he needed to improve, he knew what he had to do to improve them, and he practiced to improve them.

This 1 reason is a large part of the reason I believe Kyle Orton is our guy.  I've seen it before.  I will admit I am a Purdue fan and for that reason biased towards Kyle,  but I still base my opinion on the facts.  Kyle was actually pretty bad at Purdue.  I had even said before that he would never make it in the NFL... but in college Kyle applied those same abc's.  He went from a very unrefined QB to the leading hiesman candidate putting up one of the most dominant performances by a college QB ever recorded.  His TD/INT ratio halfway through the season had never before been seen.  One of his WR's, who was never drafted and was cut from the seahawks practice squad, currently holds the NCAA record for receptions.

We all know what happened, he got hurt, he played injured, struggled, and his stock dropped.  The point remains that we have seen him struggle and overcome adversity before.  We are seeing it occur right now, which is why this debate is upon us.

We have 2 QB's with differing mentalities and strengths.  You can twist things how you would like, but those who like Grossman see his strengths as good qualities, those who like Orton see his strengths as good qualities.  But the opposite is also true.

Grossman's strengths...
He is a playmaker.  I understand liking that but with that comes daring.  That means he doesn't limit the turnovers... a strength of Orton.  Some like 1, others prefer the other.  I personally believe that with our defense we will win more consistently by limiting the turnovers.  Some may say the all time great QB's were gunslingers.  The truth is they ran the offense and took what the defense gave them... which was sometimes longer passes.  You rarely see highlights of them throwing into triple coverage and if you do see something like that it's usually a game winning pass where they had no other choice.

Grossman is also very accurate.  It's defnately a valued quality but it's also a weakness.  How?  Rex throws to his recievers and hopes the defense doesn't make a play.  While Kyle is somewhat innacurate it's not to the degree that some believe.  When he throws the ball he tries to throw it where the defense can't make a play... and hopes the recievers can.  I believe that this is generally what is taught in the NFL... and we currently have the recievers that can do this.  The guys we brought in are hands guys... as opposed to the guys we had who would drop passes right to them.

Grossman has better touch.  It's a good thing but it's also a more pickable ball than one that Orton throws... that generally can be caught by only WR's if anyone.

Right about there... you see the 2 strengths Grossman currently has over Orton.  Arm strength, I have proven, is there with both QB's.  Orton is better at going through his progression of recievers.  Orton is better at avoiding pressure.  Orton is also more durable.  Orton is also better at the high completion throws in the short to mid range.  He is taller and thus has more passing lanes available.  He is also more consistent, and doesn't lose his composure.

Was all of that true through his entire NFL career?  No... he used to struggle with pressure, he would lock on to his recievers, and he even struggled with some shorter passes.  The thing is... those are strengths of his now because he learned.  It is for that reason, that he is not only the guy who can win now, but also the guy that will be able to win more dominantly in the future.

IF Grossman had showed he could improve the weak areas of his game... I'd be all for him.  However, he has shown everything but that.  Some would say that he has gotten worse but it's not true... defenses have gotten better at taking away his strengths.  I am confident with Orton, that when defenses do this, he can adapt to it.

Orton is our guy...

---

I disagreed with people on this message board and survived....

All I got was this lousy Sig.

psychobear:

First of all I'll start off by saying that I can respect why some would go for Rex.  He did put up some very strong performances.  In fact, if you look at Rex on his best day compared to Kyle than Rex has looked better in the past.  If you look at Rex on his worst day compared to Kyle on his worst day (in Cincy) than Kyle also put up a worse performance.  But Rex is simply not our guy.

I said before last season started that I expected Rex to struggle.  It's the unknown effect that allowed him to shine.  There was a point in time when defenses didn't know his strengths and weaknesses and that allowed him to put up some big games.  Then when the carpet seemed to get pulled out from under him, it's because teams had film to study... knew what he could do well... and knew what he couldn't.  They took away what he could do well and gave him the plays he couldn't do well... and he clearly struggled.  I knew that and I said I would stand by Rex on 1 condition...

The condition I stated was that I didn't want to see multiple fumbled snaps.  I clearly did see that.  The reason I chose that was because it's a very simple thing to fix.  He just needed to hold his hands in a different position when accepting the ball.  It's a very easy thing to practice and get right... but you have to work at it and practice it to get it right.  This came after a season of multiple fumbled snaps and I felt it would be a good measure of his ability to learn.

In order to fix the fumbled snap problem Rex had to do a few things...
a.  He had to recognize that this was an area he had to get better at.
b.  He had to figure out what he could do better.
c.  He had to practice to make that thing better.

Those 3 steps are essential to fixing any problem... and this was a simple problem to fix.  Other problems that he has... well they arn't so simple to fix.  There are more steps to it... and some of it can only be learned on the field as opposed to simply practicing it.  However... those 3 steps are in the equation.

If he can't fix the fumbled snaps then he can't fix anything.  Those great games you saw from him will never happen again.  Defenses study the film and know what they have to do to prevent those games.  Teams will always make him play to his weaknesses... unless they have an extrordinarily dumb DC.  In addition to that, you also know that Rex will always continue to struggle with the elements of his game that he struggled with in the past.

The hope with whichever QB we choose is that they will improve.  Neither are to the point we would want a starting QB to be.  We want the guy that can win now, and get better to win more dominantly in the future.

That guy is Kyle Orton.

We currently hear reports from the Bears that in practice these 2 QB's are in a dead heat.  In the past this wasn't so.  Rex previously was fairly clearly better than Kyle at the QB position.  Why is this?  Because Kyle has been able to do the abc's previously stated.  He recognized the areas of his game where he needed to improve, he knew what he had to do to improve them, and he practiced to improve them.

This 1 reason is a large part of the reason I believe Kyle Orton is our guy.  I've seen it before.  I will admit I am a Purdue fan and for that reason biased towards Kyle,  but I still base my opinion on the facts.  Kyle was actually pretty bad at Purdue.  I had even said before that he would never make it in the NFL... but in college Kyle applied those same abc's.  He went from a very unrefined QB to the leading hiesman candidate putting up one of the most dominant performances by a college QB ever recorded.  His TD/INT ratio halfway through the season had never before been seen.  One of his WR's, who was never drafted and was cut from the seahawks practice squad, currently holds the NCAA record for receptions.

We all know what happened, he got hurt, he played injured, struggled, and his stock dropped.  The point remains that we have seen him struggle and overcome adversity before.  We are seeing it occur right now, which is why this debate is upon us.

We have 2 QB's with differing mentalities and strengths.  You can twist things how you would like, but those who like Grossman see his strengths as good qualities, those who like Orton see his strengths as good qualities.  But the opposite is also true.

Grossman's strengths...
He is a playmaker.  I understand liking that but with that comes daring.  That means he doesn't limit the turnovers... a strength of Orton.  Some like 1, others prefer the other.  I personally believe that with our defense we will win more consistently by limiting the turnovers.  Some may say the all time great QB's were gunslingers.  The truth is they ran the offense and took what the defense gave them... which was sometimes longer passes.  You rarely see highlights of them throwing into triple coverage and if you do see something like that it's usually a game winning pass where they had no other choice.

Grossman is also very accurate.  It's defnately a valued quality but it's also a weakness.  How?  Rex throws to his recievers and hopes the defense doesn't make a play.  While Kyle is somewhat innacurate it's not to the degree that some believe.  When he throws the ball he tries to throw it where the defense can't make a play... and hopes the recievers can.  I believe that this is generally what is taught in the NFL... and we currently have the recievers that can do this.  The guys we brought in are hands guys... as opposed to the guys we had who would drop passes right to them.

Grossman has better touch.  It's a good thing but it's also a more pickable ball than one that Orton throws... that generally can be caught by only WR's if anyone.

Right about there... you see the 2 strengths Grossman currently has over Orton.  Arm strength, I have proven, is there with both QB's.  Orton is better at going through his progression of recievers.  Orton is better at avoiding pressure.  Orton is also more durable.  Orton is also better at the high completion throws in the short to mid range.  He is taller and thus has more passing lanes available.  He is also more consistent, and doesn't lose his composure.

Was all of that true through his entire NFL career?  No... he used to struggle with pressure, he would lock on to his recievers, and he even struggled with some shorter passes.  The thing is... those are strengths of his now because he learned.  It is for that reason, that he is not only the guy who can win now, but also the guy that will be able to win more dominantly in the future.

IF Grossman had showed he could improve the weak areas of his game... I'd be all for him.  However, he has shown everything but that.  Some would say that he has gotten worse but it's not true... defenses have gotten better at taking away his strengths.  I am confident with Orton, that when defenses do this, he can adapt to it.

Orton is our guy...su

good post man and now that orton has been taking reps with the first string o he will improve to the fullest by the season opener

Very well said. thank you for that.

Pretty funny material like there. I think my favorite line was that Rex's touch makes his passes more likely to be picked off...Quality.

Iworkatsoldierfield:

Pretty funny material like there. I think my favorite line was that Rex's touch makes his passes more likely to be picked off...Quality.

Glad you caught that.  I'm just trying to point out that anything can be spun into a bad thing or a good thing. 

Orton's positives... they can be spun as well.  When you say he takes what the defense gives him, someone could say he's not being agressive.  If you say he avoids pressure better... someone could say that it's because his eyes arn't fixated downfield.  If you say he is more durable... someone could say that it makes for less variety on offense.  Everything can be spun.

At the end of the day you have a guy who has made strides in 3 years and you have a guy who hasn't in 5... they are both playing at about the same level.  Who do you go with?

---

I disagreed with people on this message board and survived....

All I got was this lousy Sig.

psychobear:

Iworkatsoldierfield:

Pretty funny material like there. I think my favorite line was that Rex's touch makes his passes more likely to be picked off...Quality.

Glad you caught that.  I'm just trying to point out that anything can be spun into a bad thing or a good thing. 

Orton's positives... they can be spun as well.  When you say he takes what the defense gives him, someone could say he's not being agressive.  If you say he avoids pressure better... someone could say that it's because his eyes arn't fixated downfield.  If you say he is more durable... someone could say that it makes for less variety on offense.  Everything can be spun.

At the end of the day you have a guy who has made strides in 3 years and you have a guy who hasn't in 5... they are both playing at about the same level.  Who do you go with?

I Agree I honestly could see kyle as our starter this year i think it might finally be time to accept rex cant consistently get it done.

---

Caleb Hanie Is Our QB of The Future

psychobear:

First of all I'll start off by saying that I can respect why some would go for Rex.  He did put up some very strong performances.  In fact, if you look at Rex on his best day compared to Kyle than Rex has looked better in the past.  If you look at Rex on his worst day compared to Kyle on his worst day (in Cincy) than Kyle also put up a worse performance.  But Rex is simply not our guy.

I said before last season started that I expected Rex to struggle.  It's the unknown effect that allowed him to shine.  There was a point in time when defenses didn't know his strengths and weaknesses and that allowed him to put up some big games.  Then when the carpet seemed to get pulled out from under him, it's because teams had film to study... knew what he could do well... and knew what he couldn't.  They took away what he could do well and gave him the plays he couldn't do well... and he clearly struggled.  I knew that and I said I would stand by Rex on 1 condition...

The condition I stated was that I didn't want to see multiple fumbled snaps.  I clearly did see that.  The reason I chose that was because it's a very simple thing to fix.  He just needed to hold his hands in a different position when accepting the ball.  It's a very easy thing to practice and get right... but you have to work at it and practice it to get it right.  This came after a season of multiple fumbled snaps and I felt it would be a good measure of his ability to learn.

In order to fix the fumbled snap problem Rex had to do a few things...
a.  He had to recognize that this was an area he had to get better at.
b.  He had to figure out what he could do better.
c.  He had to practice to make that thing better.

Those 3 steps are essential to fixing any problem... and this was a simple problem to fix.  Other problems that he has... well they arn't so simple to fix.  There are more steps to it... and some of it can only be learned on the field as opposed to simply practicing it.  However... those 3 steps are in the equation.

If he can't fix the fumbled snaps then he can't fix anything.  Those great games you saw from him will never happen again.  Defenses study the film and know what they have to do to prevent those games.  Teams will always make him play to his weaknesses... unless they have an extrordinarily dumb DC.  In addition to that, you also know that Rex will always continue to struggle with the elements of his game that he struggled with in the past.

The hope with whichever QB we choose is that they will improve.  Neither are to the point we would want a starting QB to be.  We want the guy that can win now, and get better to win more dominantly in the future.

That guy is Kyle Orton.

We currently hear reports from the Bears that in practice these 2 QB's are in a dead heat.  In the past this wasn't so.  Rex previously was fairly clearly better than Kyle at the QB position.  Why is this?  Because Kyle has been able to do the abc's previously stated.  He recognized the areas of his game where he needed to improve, he knew what he had to do to improve them, and he practiced to improve them.

This 1 reason is a large part of the reason I believe Kyle Orton is our guy.  I've seen it before.  I will admit I am a Purdue fan and for that reason biased towards Kyle,  but I still base my opinion on the facts.  Kyle was actually pretty bad at Purdue.  I had even said before that he would never make it in the NFL... but in college Kyle applied those same abc's.  He went from a very unrefined QB to the leading hiesman candidate putting up one of the most dominant performances by a college QB ever recorded.  His TD/INT ratio halfway through the season had never before been seen.  One of his WR's, who was never drafted and was cut from the seahawks practice squad, currently holds the NCAA record for receptions.

We all know what happened, he got hurt, he played injured, struggled, and his stock dropped.  The point remains that we have seen him struggle and overcome adversity before.  We are seeing it occur right now, which is why this debate is upon us.

We have 2 QB's with differing mentalities and strengths.  You can twist things how you would like, but those who like Grossman see his strengths as good qualities, those who like Orton see his strengths as good qualities.  But the opposite is also true.

Grossman's strengths...
He is a playmaker.  I understand liking that but with that comes daring.  That means he doesn't limit the turnovers... a strength of Orton.  Some like 1, others prefer the other.  I personally believe that with our defense we will win more consistently by limiting the turnovers.  Some may say the all time great QB's were gunslingers.  The truth is they ran the offense and took what the defense gave them... which was sometimes longer passes.  You rarely see highlights of them throwing into triple coverage and if you do see something like that it's usually a game winning pass where they had no other choice.

Grossman is also very accurate.  It's defnately a valued quality but it's also a weakness.  How?  Rex throws to his recievers and hopes the defense doesn't make a play.  While Kyle is somewhat innacurate it's not to the degree that some believe.  When he throws the ball he tries to throw it where the defense can't make a play... and hopes the recievers can.  I believe that this is generally what is taught in the NFL... and we currently have the recievers that can do this.  The guys we brought in are hands guys... as opposed to the guys we had who would drop passes right to them.

Grossman has better touch.  It's a good thing but it's also a more pickable ball than one that Orton throws... that generally can be caught by only WR's if anyone.

Right about there... you see the 2 strengths Grossman currently has over Orton.  Arm strength, I have proven, is there with both QB's.  Orton is better at going through his progression of recievers.  Orton is better at avoiding pressure.  Orton is also more durable.  Orton is also better at the high completion throws in the short to mid range.  He is taller and thus has more passing lanes available.  He is also more consistent, and doesn't lose his composure.

Was all of that true through his entire NFL career?  No... he used to struggle with pressure, he would lock on to his recievers, and he even struggled with some shorter passes.  The thing is... those are strengths of his now because he learned.  It is for that reason, that he is not only the guy who can win now, but also the guy that will be able to win more dominantly in the future.

IF Grossman had showed he could improve the weak areas of his game... I'd be all for him.  However, he has shown everything but that.  Some would say that he has gotten worse but it's not true... defenses have gotten better at taking away his strengths.  I am confident with Orton, that when defenses do this, he can adapt to it.

Orton is our guy...

Dang PB, I like the way you're put so many of the Pro-Kyle arguments together.  They seem to hang together much better when they're presented in that way.

But you've omitted a very big reason to be for Kyle.  It was very obvious when KO was under center that the entire Offense functioned better.  He's simply a better leader, better in the huddle.  Whether or not the other players like him, it's apparent that they have more faith in him - their increased level of play, Offense Defense and Special Teams - all attest to it.  Rex may be the most "likeable" guy in the locker room, but the team seems to have a lot more faith in winning with Kyle...

---

"Kyle Orton just seems to help us win every time he's behind center." - Lovie Smith

---

Member #1 of the Kyle Orton Neckbeard Army

---

"He won't go away. Drop a nuke on Grossman and he arises from the radioactive rubble, ready to throw an interception. He laughs at the Andromeda Strain. He spits on your mocking of him. Cockroaches say the only thing that will outlive them is Grossman. No, he won't go away. He just won't freaking go away."
- CBS Sportsline

---

"Official" Kyle Orton Excuse Maker - now endorsed by Philo

Great post you pretty much said it how I see it between these two QB's the one aspect I like about Orton game is he goes through all of his progressions. He doesn't lock on to 1 receiver like he used to early in his rookie season. I also like how you perfectly explained why Orton is innacurate at times because he tries to put the ball where only his receiver can make the play which is Football 101.

---

Dumbest quote of the year

"It is so obvious that Aikman hates Grossman. It's probably because he realizes Grossman is a better quarterback than him." -Traderumorfromcubs.com

Good point as far as everyone saying they are equal going into training camp and how it shows improvement on Kyle's end since they have never been equal before.  I would want the QB who is moving forward in his development than the one who is stagnent.  Plus, I think this speaks well for Kyle in terms of actual live football.  He is better in real game situations in regards to having pressure from the D put on him and taking what they give him. 

---

Im not bashing Rex or Orton but Rex averaged .5 fumbles from behind center per game. Orton averaged a little over .3 from behind center per game. Maybe Kreutz has something to do with this???
BTW Peyton Manning averaged a little over .3  and Brady averaged .25 from behind center so maybe we are just reading to far into this.

---

Great post again. Im anxious to see what Philio has to say.

---

Good post, lots of great analysis! I totally agree. I can see Orton being our guy this season.

I don't hate Rex. I was one of his stronger supporters last season, but I cannot take the Grossman Rollercoaster ride for another season.

Rooting for Rex the past 2 years has been like going to Vegas and initially winning BIG then loosing everything slowly at the craps table.

I cannot wait for the season to start!

Good post. Go Bears!!!

Dennis:

psychobear:

First of all I'll start off by saying that I can respect why some would go for Rex.  He did put up some very strong performances.  In fact, if you look at Rex on his best day compared to Kyle than Rex has looked better in the past.  If you look at Rex on his worst day compared to Kyle on his worst day (in Cincy) than Kyle also put up a worse performance.  But Rex is simply not our guy.

I said before last season started that I expected Rex to struggle.  It's the unknown effect that allowed him to shine.  There was a point in time when defenses didn't know his strengths and weaknesses and that allowed him to put up some big games.  Then when the carpet seemed to get pulled out from under him, it's because teams had film to study... knew what he could do well... and knew what he couldn't.  They took away what he could do well and gave him the plays he couldn't do well... and he clearly struggled.  I knew that and I said I would stand by Rex on 1 condition...

The condition I stated was that I didn't want to see multiple fumbled snaps.  I clearly did see that.  The reason I chose that was because it's a very simple thing to fix.  He just needed to hold his hands in a different position when accepting the ball.  It's a very easy thing to practice and get right... but you have to work at it and practice it to get it right.  This came after a season of multiple fumbled snaps and I felt it would be a good measure of his ability to learn.

In order to fix the fumbled snap problem Rex had to do a few things...
a.  He had to recognize that this was an area he had to get better at.
b.  He had to figure out what he could do better.
c.  He had to practice to make that thing better.

Those 3 steps are essential to fixing any problem... and this was a simple problem to fix.  Other problems that he has... well they arn't so simple to fix.  There are more steps to it... and some of it can only be learned on the field as opposed to simply practicing it.  However... those 3 steps are in the equation.

If he can't fix the fumbled snaps then he can't fix anything.  Those great games you saw from him will never happen again.  Defenses study the film and know what they have to do to prevent those games.  Teams will always make him play to his weaknesses... unless they have an extrordinarily dumb DC.  In addition to that, you also know that Rex will always continue to struggle with the elements of his game that he struggled with in the past.

The hope with whichever QB we choose is that they will improve.  Neither are to the point we would want a starting QB to be.  We want the guy that can win now, and get better to win more dominantly in the future.

That guy is Kyle Orton.

We currently hear reports from the Bears that in practice these 2 QB's are in a dead heat.  In the past this wasn't so.  Rex previously was fairly clearly better than Kyle at the QB position.  Why is this?  Because Kyle has been able to do the abc's previously stated.  He recognized the areas of his game where he needed to improve, he knew what he had to do to improve them, and he practiced to improve them.

This 1 reason is a large part of the reason I believe Kyle Orton is our guy.  I've seen it before.  I will admit I am a Purdue fan and for that reason biased towards Kyle,  but I still base my opinion on the facts.  Kyle was actually pretty bad at Purdue.  I had even said before that he would never make it in the NFL... but in college Kyle applied those same abc's.  He went from a very unrefined QB to the leading hiesman candidate putting up one of the most dominant performances by a college QB ever recorded.  His TD/INT ratio halfway through the season had never before been seen.  One of his WR's, who was never drafted and was cut from the seahawks practice squad, currently holds the NCAA record for receptions.

We all know what happened, he got hurt, he played injured, struggled, and his stock dropped.  The point remains that we have seen him struggle and overcome adversity before.  We are seeing it occur right now, which is why this debate is upon us.

We have 2 QB's with differing mentalities and strengths.  You can twist things how you would like, but those who like Grossman see his strengths as good qualities, those who like Orton see his strengths as good qualities.  But the opposite is also true.

Grossman's strengths...
He is a playmaker.  I understand liking that but with that comes daring.  That means he doesn't limit the turnovers... a strength of Orton.  Some like 1, others prefer the other.  I personally believe that with our defense we will win more consistently by limiting the turnovers.  Some may say the all time great QB's were gunslingers.  The truth is they ran the offense and took what the defense gave them... which was sometimes longer passes.  You rarely see highlights of them throwing into triple coverage and if you do see something like that it's usually a game winning pass where they had no other choice.

Grossman is also very accurate.  It's defnately a valued quality but it's also a weakness.  How?  Rex throws to his recievers and hopes the defense doesn't make a play.  While Kyle is somewhat innacurate it's not to the degree that some believe.  When he throws the ball he tries to throw it where the defense can't make a play... and hopes the recievers can.  I believe that this is generally what is taught in the NFL... and we currently have the recievers that can do this.  The guys we brought in are hands guys... as opposed to the guys we had who would drop passes right to them.

Grossman has better touch.  It's a good thing but it's also a more pickable ball than one that Orton throws... that generally can be caught by only WR's if anyone.

Right about there... you see the 2 strengths Grossman currently has over Orton.  Arm strength, I have proven, is there with both QB's.  Orton is better at going through his progression of recievers.  Orton is better at avoiding pressure.  Orton is also more durable.  Orton is also better at the high completion throws in the short to mid range.  He is taller and thus has more passing lanes available.  He is also more consistent, and doesn't lose his composure.

Was all of that true through his entire NFL career?  No... he used to struggle with pressure, he would lock on to his recievers, and he even struggled with some shorter passes.  The thing is... those are strengths of his now because he learned.  It is for that reason, that he is not only the guy who can win now, but also the guy that will be able to win more dominantly in the future.

IF Grossman had showed he could improve the weak areas of his game... I'd be all for him.  However, he has shown everything but that.  Some would say that he has gotten worse but it's not true... defenses have gotten better at taking away his strengths.  I am confident with Orton, that when defenses do this, he can adapt to it.

Orton is our guy...

Dang PB, I like the way you're put so many of the Pro-Kyle arguments together.  They seem to hang together much better when they're presented in that way.

But you've omitted a very big reason to be for Kyle.  It was very obvious when KO was under center that the entire Offense functioned better.  He's simply a better leader, better in the huddle.  Whether or not the other players like him, it's apparent that they have more faith in him - their increased level of play, Offense Defense and Special Teams - all attest to it.  Rex may be the most "likeable" guy in the locker room, but the team seems to have a lot more faith in winning with Kyle...

i wonder what philio is going to say

I hope your right because he seems durable and not that excitable but we really don't know if he's going to get a whole lot better and honestly, they both need to. It's a fine argument but I'll wait to see what happens in the pre.