I really hope Ogun and Tait restructure their deals. Ogun had an off year but the entire DL did. He is only one year away from a 9 sack season. I think we want to bring someone else in, either a FA or rookie.

Tait is not worth the money but he isn't worthless either. We have no depth at RT or LT and he can fill in at both.

Both may be unwilling to restructure but I hope they do. If we lose Tait we definitely need to be signing somebody in FA. Even if we draft a rookie OT a FA will be needed just to provide some depth.

I'm trying to see if reading this right. As an example. Not saying we should, but if we were to cut say LAnce Briggs would we be hit with a cap hit of 3.9 million? Or if we cut say Charles Tillman would we save 2.25 million?

mooseman83:

I'm trying to see if reading this right. As an example. Not saying we should, but if we were to cut say LAnce Briggs would we be hit with a cap hit of 3.9 million? Or if we cut say Charles Tillman would we save 2.25 million?

No these are just 2009 numbers... you would need to take ALL the remaining years of the signing bonus( on right has year contract ends).. so on briggs its 667,000X 5 yeasr or 3.35 mill in 'dead space- his $4.75 roster bonus and $805,000 salary or  we would "save" 2.25 million if cut briggs

I think some of the numbers are a little off

Hillenmayer signed a 5 yr extension with 1yr left on the contract so the 5 mil signing bonus should be divided by 6 resulting in 0.83 in your signing bonus column.

Also, can you post the numbers for Booker's contract, those that I got from rotoworld don't make sense:
3/4/2008: Signed a two-year, $3.5 million contract. The deal included a $500,000 signing bonus and a $500,000 roster bonus in the first season. $50,000 workout bonuses are available in each year. 2009: $1 million, 2010: Free Agent
They only add up to 3.0 mil total.

Oh, and I saw in the other thread that you're making the same mistake you did last year when the discussion on this subject went on for quite a few pages. If you cut a player with x yrs on his contract you save his salary minus (x-1)*bonus. Well actually the correct formula would be sal +bonus - x*bonus
So if we cut Ogun and Tait that would add 4.8+4.8 =9.6 mil to the cap space.
For Vasher that would be his sal minus half of his signing bonus, 2.95-5.75= -2.8 That's a cost, but if we cut or trade him after June then it would be 2.95+1.9-7.6/2=1.05 savings and 3.8 hit in 2010

I think we'll cut Tait, Booker, AP, Dusty and HH and try to trade Ogun and Vasher.

Hate to poke dBear, I know this argument eruptted last year, but you're gonna have to explain why cutting Tait & Ogun save only $2.3 mill each instead of $4.8 mill.

Tait according to your figures would count as $7,133,333 against the 2009 cap if he is kept (signing bonus + salary). If he is cut we pay him his remaining bonus which would continue to count against the cap, which is $2,333,333 for the last year of his contract which is this year, but none of his salary. If this is the case then his cap figure is reduced by $4.8 million as only his bonus would come off the cap. Where does the other $2.5 million cap hit come from?

(exact same scenario for Ogun).

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FINALLY THE WAIT IS OVER!!!
(Mark my words. If Matt Toeaina isn't retained and given a chance, it will be a decision that the coaching staff will come to deeply regret!) Now let's see him given a chance!
.

Afrocomb:

Hate to poke dBear, I know this argument eruptted last year, but you're gonna have to explain why cutting Tait & Ogun save only $2.3 mill each instead of $4.8 mill.

Tait according to your figures would count as $7,133,333 against the 2009 cap if he is kept (signing bonus + salary). If he is cut we pay him his remaining bonus which would continue to count against the cap, which is $2,333,333 for the last year of his contract which is this year, but none of his salary. If this is the case then his cap figure is reduced by $4.8 million as only his bonus would come off the cap. Where does the other $2.5 million cap hit come from?

(exact same scenario for Ogun).

i'm not doing this again this year afrocomb( esp for an annoying 2-3 pages)...

The "estimated salary cap thread", is a live working budget that includes  this year Salary+ unamortized 2009 signing bonuses+roster bonues etc..the unamortized signing bonuses are NOT cash items, but like depreciation a yearly deduction( the players get cash up fromnt and a portion prorated each year)

Asking the 'cost" to cut a player singlary  is different .. and its not part of the "working budget".. you are correct in that the "working budget", because already included the 2009 signing bonus, teh "cost" is only the salary( bcause you have it in your working budget..But as a single event the 'cost"  is teh salary - the bonus)..

As the player you Cut technically needs to be replaced the actualy "cost/savings" on teh working budget would be the $4.8 million "saved" on the working budget- whatever the replaecment cost of player signed.

 

adun79:

I think some of the numbers are a little off

Hillenmayer signed a 5 yr extension with 1yr left on the contract so the 5 mil signing bonus should be divided by 6 resulting in 0.83 in your signing bonus column.

Also, can you post the numbers for Booker's contract, those that I got from rotoworld don't make sense:
3/4/2008: Signed a two-year, $3.5 million contract. The deal included a $500,000 signing bonus and a $500,000 roster bonus in the first season. $50,000 workout bonuses are available in each year. 2009: $1 million, 2010: Free Agent
They only add up to 3.0 mil total.

Oh, and I saw in the other thread that you're making the same mistake you did last year when the discussion on this subject went on for quite a few pages. If you cut a player with x yrs on his contract you save his salary minus (x-1)*bonus. Well actually the correct formula would be sal +bonus - x*bonus
So if we cut Ogun and Tait that would add 4.8+4.8 =9.6 mil to the cap space.
For Vasher that would be his sal minus half of his signing bonus, 2.95-5.75= -2.8 That's a cost, but if we cut or trade him after June then it would be 2.95+1.9-7.6/2=1.05 savings and 3.8 hit in 2010

I think we'll cut Tait, Booker, AP, Dusty and HH and try to trade Ogun and Vasher.

The info I had on booker was a $1.5 mill signing bonus a 950,000 2008 salary and 50K workout and a $1 mill 2009 salary total 3.5 million. rotoworld gets some of these  numbers wrong.. and on hunter the Deal was done a year early( bears do this alot), so the "new" money is 5 years( keep teh 2006 salary his old rookie deal).. But the Bonus is actually amortized over 6 years 2006.2007.2008.2009.2010,2011 for teh amortization  $5mill/6 yrs= $833,333)

When you factor in what should be a credit of more than $9 million for cornerback Marcus Hamilton, the Bears should have more than $26 million in cap room under what is expected to be a $123 million cap ceiling. The cap used to be a much greater factor than it is now. You don't see cap casualties like you used to and nearly every team has ample flexibility. That the Bears have the least amount of money available in the division, per the Seifert report that is worth checking out, is proof enough.

BTW "IF" the hamilton credit is true we will know in feb. when the NFL announces the real cap Number and the "adjusted cap number".. which will include all the UTBE and LTBE credits for each team.. that will be the confirmation id the bears adjusted number is $7 mill higher( taking into account all the other credits/deductions we know already). This is teh first time seen briggs actually put it in writing, so this will be a real nice bonus and will give us room for at least 1-2 top line f/a's

look Like the pakcers will also get a big pop in march in bogus LTBE's..

Rolling it over: In effect, the Packers rolled over $7.278 million onto their 2009 cap by signing guard Nevin McCaskill to a bogus new deal three days before the deadline for obtaining salary-cap credit next year.

On Dec. 26, the Packers added a “likely-to-be-earned” incentive clause for that amount on McCaskill’s two-year contract, which he originally signed Dec. 11 after being plucked off Philadelphia’s practice squad.

Thus, the Packers were able to finish the 2008 season just $116,284 under their adjusted salary cap of $126.16 million.

“The bottom line is, we let football make decisions on whatever they think will help us win,” Murphy said. “I think we’ve managed between Ted (Thompson) and Russ (Ball) in a way to give us as much flexibility in the future as possible.”

The requirements for McCaskill to have earned the $7.278 million incentive were tied to special-teams exploits such as blocking six punts. He never got into a game.

Under NFL rules, the Packers were able to designate the amount under the “likely-to-be-earned” incentive category. Therefore, it was charged immediately against their cap.

By the start of the league year in March, NFL officials will know that the incentive to McCaskill wasn’t earned. Thus, the $7.278 million will be debited back against the Packers’ cap and added to their adjusted cap for 2009.

Ten teams decided to complete 2008 with more than $1 million of cap room, none of which could be used next year. Kansas City left the season with $21.87 million of cap room, followed by Cincinnati ($10.76 million), Buffalo ($5.14 million), Atlanta ($4.99 million) and Arizona ($2.91 million).

Currently, the Packers have $105.157 million of committed salary-cap expenses for 2009, which ranks 16th. The NFL salary cap, which was $116.7 million in 2008, is expected to increase about $7 million in 2009.

The agent for a player that agreed to a dummy clause with another team said his client was given $10,000 for his trouble. The Packers didn’t give McCaskill anything.

“That’s fine,” agent Paul Sheehy said. “It was a good pickup from our perspective going to the Packers, so I had no problem working with them to accommodate them on that. They took a shot at the kid and activated him and guaranteed him three games.”

Whats the deal with Roach @ 1.5 million?

I thought he was set to become a restricted rights FA?

Maybe thats the answer and the 1.5 million is the level he was tendered at??

GO Bears!

CROWLS:

Whats the deal with Roach @ 1.5 million?

I thought he was set to become a restricted rights FA?

Maybe thats the answer and the 1.5 million is the level he was tendered at??

GO Bears!

that's correct, just went off last years tender as an 'estimate".. will update of change when actually give the tag( we used on mcgowan last year)

who could be one of the most attractive players in the unrestricted pool next spring, has signed his one-year restricted free agent qualifying offer with  a deal worth $1.573 million.

That is not, and can`t be the rookie cap. The rookie cap will not be determined, until the number of picks we have, where we have them, and what positions we draft, and where. Only then will our rookie cap be determined, and it will be a percentage of our overall cap, and different than that of other teams rookie cap, differentiated by the number of picks, etc. Yes!, we could have 5, 6, or 7 1st round picks, and our rookie cap would be determined based on that, not some predetermined number. And yes, those that do the determining, figure everything into the equation when deciding what the cap is to be, in order to be fair, otherwise there would be legal issues.

I also must say, when figuring your plans, don`t plan on this team winning in 2009 or 2010. That is simply not possible. So think real hard about keeping any vets with big contracts, and maybe figure a better way to spend money, and/or improve the team, and it`s future.

bear nut:

That is not, and can`t be the rookie cap. The rookie cap will not be determined, until the number of picks we have, where we have them, and what positions we draft, and where. Only then will our rookie cap be determined, and it will be a percentage of our overall cap, and different than that of other teams rookie cap, differentiated by the number of picks, etc. Yes!, we could have 5, 6, or 7 1st round picks, and our rookie cap would be determined based on that, not some predetermined number. And yes, those that do the determining, figure everything into the equation when deciding what the cap is to be, in order to be fair, otherwise there would be legal issues.

you on drugs? J/K

Take a deep breath.. NOW... the rookie cap will be between $5.00 mill and $6 million( last year picking 14th it was $5.6 million), we have one less pick this year( based on the compensation picks we get for berrian etc), so would expect it it around the same number.

No need to get so worked up : )

bear nut:

I also must say, when figuring your plans, don`t plan on this team winning in 2009 or 2010. That is simply not possible. So think real hard about keeping any vets with big contracts, and maybe figure a better way to spend money, and/or improve the team, and it`s future.

well at least the 2nd part of your name is self-explanitory : )

Just from salary reduction from trades and release of dead weight alone, I come up with another $29,000,000+, with your $21,000,000 cap, that is $50,000,000 easy. Could sign rookies, free agents, and absorb the cap hits easily with that, have some left over. Very possible to change the face of the Bears in a big way, and improve the team very significantly where needed.

You will pay the cap hits no matter what, trading the higher priced vets, you just have to absorb it all in 2009, which is what you would want to do, get it over with, clear the space. I think where people really object to my plans, is they assume we pay the cap hits for nothing, throwing money away, whereas I consider keeping the players throwing money away, cuz I don`t believe there is anyway they win, and we need their value in trade to upgrade. We get the upgrade in return for the cap hits. We gain. We don`t lose in the deals. It`s business. In my dynasty plan, I create a system with a drafting plan, that will avoid this necessity in the future.

dbears54 --

Do you think that the Bears have enough cap room to get TJ Houshmandzadeh, Terrell Suggs and Vernon Carey? I think those 3 would cost between 17-19 mill is that about right? 

Maybe they even have enough to add Atogwe or Jermaine Phillips as well if they restructure some right or am I reaching now?

bear nut:

Just from salary reduction from trades and release of dead weight alone, I come up with another $29,000,000+, with your $21,000,000 cap, that is $50,000,000 easy. Could sign rookies, free agents, and absorb the cap hits easily with that, have some left over. Very possible to change the face of the Bears in a big way, and improve the team very significantly where needed.

nothing personal, but you do not understand how the cap or cap hits work.

If you cut or trade  a player( treated the same for cap purposes)  you don't just take a hit for this years amortized signing bonus BUT ALL REMAINING.

So for example you Cut a player that let's say got a $10 million signing bonus for a 5 year deal( $2 mill amortized signing bonus a year)..If you cut him in year 2 the "cap hit" is not jus $2 million, but $8 million( 4 years X 2 mill) .

 So You are making up numbers out of whole cloth to find anyway the bears could "save" 29 million. If you tell me the players i'll give the real numbers and i'm VERY comfortable saying your number is way off. Sorry

Forte All Day:

dbears54 --

Do you think that the Bears have enough cap room to get TJ Houshmandzadeh, Terrell Suggs and Vernon Carey? I think those 3 would cost between 17-19 mill is that about right? 

Maybe they even have enough to add Atogwe or Jermaine Phillips as well if they restructure some right or am I reaching now?

maybe 2 of those 3 not all 3..

Suggs will probably be in the $50 million Category..( figure 7 mill- 8 mill + in cap space)

housh the $45 mill category( mostly because of berrian 42 mill last year and not much good wr's this year( so again 6.8-7.5 mill cap space)

carey id' say $28-35 million - which would be the 5- 5.5 million cap space

And you need to have esp this time fo eyar 4-5 million  "buffer" for june 1st cuts and camp injuries in case need to pick up a player if a big Cog goes down..

Whoa. Thanks Dbears, you are on top of it. Very informative

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"If you hone your body like a tool, you can use it as a weapon." Sweetness

Whoever said, 'It's not whether you win or lose that counts, it's how you play the game,' probably lost.

dbears54:

Forte All Day:

dbears54 --

Do you think that the Bears have enough cap room to get TJ Houshmandzadeh, Terrell Suggs and Vernon Carey? I think those 3 would cost between 17-19 mill is that about right? 

Maybe they even have enough to add Atogwe or Jermaine Phillips as well if they restructure some right or am I reaching now?

maybe 2 of those 3 not all 3..

Suggs will probably be in the $50 million Category..( figure 7 mill- 8 mill + in cap space)

housh the $45 mill category( mostly because of berrian 42 mill last year and not much good wr's this year( so again 6.8-7.5 mill cap space)

carey id' say $28-35 million - which would be the 5- 5.5 million cap space

And you need to have esp this time fo eyar 4-5 million  "buffer" for june 1st cuts and camp injuries in case need to pick up a player if a big Cog goes down..

 

Thanks for all your info dbears!!!!

What if with all of the quality DE's available in draft they wanted to get

WR -- Housh (6.8 - 7.5 mill)

OT -- Carey (5 - 5.5 mill)

S -- Atogwe or Phillips (? mill 5-6? )

Could they do that and still have enough room? Thanks in advance!

skipmann:

Whoa. Thanks Dbears, you are on top of it. Very informative

No prob.. glad to help and get correct info out there, the more info and knowledge, the better : )

Forte All Day:

dbears54:

Forte All Day:

dbears54 --

Do you think that the Bears have enough cap room to get TJ Houshmandzadeh, Terrell Suggs and Vernon Carey? I think those 3 would cost between 17-19 mill is that about right? 

Maybe they even have enough to add Atogwe or Jermaine Phillips as well if they restructure some right or am I reaching now?

maybe 2 of those 3 not all 3..

Suggs will probably be in the $50 million Category..( figure 7 mill- 8 mill + in cap space)

housh the $45 mill category( mostly because of berrian 42 mill last year and not much good wr's this year( so again 6.8-7.5 mill cap space)

carey id' say $28-35 million - which would be the 5- 5.5 million cap space

And you need to have esp this time fo eyar 4-5 million  "buffer" for june 1st cuts and camp injuries in case need to pick up a player if a big Cog goes down..

 

Thanks for all your info dbears!!!!

What if with all of the quality DE's available in draft they wanted to get

WR -- Housh (6.8 - 7.5 mill)

OT -- Carey (5 - 5.5 mill)

S -- Atogwe or Phillips (? mill 5-6? )

Could they do that and still have enough room? Thanks in advance!

Would depend on the market.. in "theory" yes,but would be real tight-  BUT in reality all you need is one dumb owner to way overspend and the "plan" falls apart.. Ie.. last year we offered berrian $28 million( which IMo very reasonable and the correct amount for him), but vikes vastly overpaid at $42 million, and we weren't going to match.. I remember when Arch first came a F/a.. bears tried to get him, but synder bid an idiotic $30 mill for him( glad we didn't chase that.. though unfort got him later at $2 mill,, but still not worth it).. or in 2004 we tried for kearse but fell out of bidding when got above $50 million..

always have to take into account, if a team way overpays you have to move on..