Philo:

tyrant:

What I dont understand is why people will blast Orton for his rookie season. Unless you're a 1st round pick, you cant be expected to be starting right away,

That's funny because all of you Orton fans keep claiming he was supposed to have been a first round pick and only his injury in his senior year dropped him to the 4th round.

It's simply amazing how the Orton fan wants it both ways.

Even a 1st round pick isn't usually started right away.  Most college QBs seem to play in spread offenses and so need time to adapt to the pro-style offense most teams use.  Also, the NFL game is faster and much more complex than college, it takes time to acclimate to that new environment.  That's why most rookie QBs "carry a clipboard," they just aren't ready to play in the NFL right away...

What i don't get is, in your first paragraph you say Rex on his best day beats Kyle on his best day by a wide margin.  Then you say Rex's worst day is even better than Kyle's worst day.   Making it pretty clear cut that you believe Rex is the better QB.

But then you say, that their play is equal, and since one is rising and the other is stagnet that the one's play who is rising should get the job.  If that were true, i would agree.  However, by your own words you have acknowledged that Rex is and has been the superior QB.  So they aren't equal right now.

Basically what you have is one QB who has shown superior talent, but hasn't improved, and another QB who has shown lesser talent that is slighly improving.....but yet still isn't at the first QB's level.  And with that information, you want to annoit the lesser QB as the starter, even though his play hasnt risen above average yet?

I'm ALL for giving Orton a shot, but lets at least wait till we see some preseason games before we make any judgements.  If their play is even equal in the preseason, then i will be all for Orton being the starter because of the reason you listed....an actually improving Quarterback is better than a stagnet one.  But right now, i dont think we have that.

psychobear:

First of all I'll start off by saying that I can respect why some would go for Rex.  He did put up some very strong performances.  In fact, if you look at Rex on his best day compared to Kyle than Rex has looked better in the past.  If you look at Rex on his worst day compared to Kyle on his worst day (in Cincy) than Kyle also put up a worse performance.  But Rex is simply not our guy.

I said before last season started that I expected Rex to struggle.  It's the unknown effect that allowed him to shine.  There was a point in time when defenses didn't know his strengths and weaknesses and that allowed him to put up some big games.  Then when the carpet seemed to get pulled out from under him, it's because teams had film to study... knew what he could do well... and knew what he couldn't.  They took away what he could do well and gave him the plays he couldn't do well... and he clearly struggled.  I knew that and I said I would stand by Rex on 1 condition...

The condition I stated was that I didn't want to see multiple fumbled snaps.  I clearly did see that.  The reason I chose that was because it's a very simple thing to fix.  He just needed to hold his hands in a different position when accepting the ball.  It's a very easy thing to practice and get right... but you have to work at it and practice it to get it right.  This came after a season of multiple fumbled snaps and I felt it would be a good measure of his ability to learn.

In order to fix the fumbled snap problem Rex had to do a few things...
a.  He had to recognize that this was an area he had to get better at.
b.  He had to figure out what he could do better.
c.  He had to practice to make that thing better.

Those 3 steps are essential to fixing any problem... and this was a simple problem to fix.  Other problems that he has... well they arn't so simple to fix.  There are more steps to it... and some of it can only be learned on the field as opposed to simply practicing it.  However... those 3 steps are in the equation.

If he can't fix the fumbled snaps then he can't fix anything.  Those great games you saw from him will never happen again.  Defenses study the film and know what they have to do to prevent those games.  Teams will always make him play to his weaknesses... unless they have an extrordinarily dumb DC.  In addition to that, you also know that Rex will always continue to struggle with the elements of his game that he struggled with in the past.

The hope with whichever QB we choose is that they will improve.  Neither are to the point we would want a starting QB to be.  We want the guy that can win now, and get better to win more dominantly in the future.

That guy is Kyle Orton.

We currently hear reports from the Bears that in practice these 2 QB's are in a dead heat.  In the past this wasn't so.  Rex previously was fairly clearly better than Kyle at the QB position.  Why is this?  Because Kyle has been able to do the abc's previously stated.  He recognized the areas of his game where he needed to improve, he knew what he had to do to improve them, and he practiced to improve them.

This 1 reason is a large part of the reason I believe Kyle Orton is our guy.  I've seen it before.  I will admit I am a Purdue fan and for that reason biased towards Kyle,  but I still base my opinion on the facts.  Kyle was actually pretty bad at Purdue.  I had even said before that he would never make it in the NFL... but in college Kyle applied those same abc's.  He went from a very unrefined QB to the leading hiesman candidate putting up one of the most dominant performances by a college QB ever recorded.  His TD/INT ratio halfway through the season had never before been seen.  One of his WR's, who was never drafted and was cut from the seahawks practice squad, currently holds the NCAA record for receptions.

We all know what happened, he got hurt, he played injured, struggled, and his stock dropped.  The point remains that we have seen him struggle and overcome adversity before.  We are seeing it occur right now, which is why this debate is upon us.

We have 2 QB's with differing mentalities and strengths.  You can twist things how you would like, but those who like Grossman see his strengths as good qualities, those who like Orton see his strengths as good qualities.  But the opposite is also true.

Grossman's strengths...
He is a playmaker.  I understand liking that but with that comes daring.  That means he doesn't limit the turnovers... a strength of Orton.  Some like 1, others prefer the other.  I personally believe that with our defense we will win more consistently by limiting the turnovers.  Some may say the all time great QB's were gunslingers.  The truth is they ran the offense and took what the defense gave them... which was sometimes longer passes.  You rarely see highlights of them throwing into triple coverage and if you do see something like that it's usually a game winning pass where they had no other choice.

Grossman is also very accurate.  It's defnately a valued quality but it's also a weakness.  How?  Rex throws to his recievers and hopes the defense doesn't make a play.  While Kyle is somewhat innacurate it's not to the degree that some believe.  When he throws the ball he tries to throw it where the defense can't make a play... and hopes the recievers can.  I believe that this is generally what is taught in the NFL... and we currently have the recievers that can do this.  The guys we brought in are hands guys... as opposed to the guys we had who would drop passes right to them.

Grossman has better touch.  It's a good thing but it's also a more pickable ball than one that Orton throws... that generally can be caught by only WR's if anyone.

Right about there... you see the 2 strengths Grossman currently has over Orton.  Arm strength, I have proven, is there with both QB's.  Orton is better at going through his progression of recievers.  Orton is better at avoiding pressure.  Orton is also more durable.  Orton is also better at the high completion throws in the short to mid range.  He is taller and thus has more passing lanes available.  He is also more consistent, and doesn't lose his composure.

Was all of that true through his entire NFL career?  No... he used to struggle with pressure, he would lock on to his recievers, and he even struggled with some shorter passes.  The thing is... those are strengths of his now because he learned.  It is for that reason, that he is not only the guy who can win now, but also the guy that will be able to win more dominantly in the future.

IF Grossman had showed he could improve the weak areas of his game... I'd be all for him.  However, he has shown everything but that.  Some would say that he has gotten worse but it's not true... defenses have gotten better at taking away his strengths.  I am confident with Orton, that when defenses do this, he can adapt to it.

Orton is our guy...

First off, the fumbled snaps are more Kruetz's issue than the QB, as it's been shown that every QB that's been under Kreutz has had fumbled snaps.

Secondly, Orton will never be an explosive QB, ever. Rex has a chance to be a big time QB, Orton has a shot at caretaking the spot until something better comes along.

allbearz:

"At the end of the day you have a guy who has made strides in 3 years and you have a guy who hasn't in 5... they are both playing at about the same level.  Who do you go with?"

Easy. The guy that has a track record of making plays, keeping the defense fresh, has the ability to lead a comeback, has the ability to win and help his team to the Super Bowl, Rex Grossman.

brscbsbls:

allbearz:

"At the end of the day you have a guy who has made strides in 3 years and you have a guy who hasn't in 5... they are both playing at about the same level.  Who do you go with?"

Easy. The guy that has a track record of making plays, keeping the defense fresh, has the ability to lead a comeback, has the ability to win and help his team to the Super Bowl, Rex Grossman.

I don't know what "strides" you are talking about. Orton has not made any strides at all. His total yardage per game is still under 150 yds and his QB rating is still in the low 70's. So what magical strides are you talking about?

Orton is the safer bet- Less picks and less fumbles, along with slightly quicker feet and better pocket presence.

As far as yards per game, do not forget that Rex has reached 300 yards a single time in his career- in overtime. 300+ yards in a game was reached 63 times in the NFL in 2006. It was reached twice by Griese in 07. Yards per game is not a stat you want to throw out in support of Grossman.

They both Are poor examples of the quarterback position- But Orton has less wear and tear on him, and is much less prone to mental meltdowns. Teams do not have current, up to date film on what throws Orton into a tailspin as they do with Grossman. As of this moment, there is no glaring fault teams can exploit with Orton.

With Orton you have a semi-solid game manager who is not going to light up the scoreboard.

With Grossman, you have the potential to develop into a very servicable long term starter, but the looming potential of disasterous meltdown is just as likely. Based on his spotty health record, as well as his failure to show visible maturation over 5 years, The odds get slimmer each day that he will grow into the potential that he once had.

Personally, I think they are both here for 08 and gone, so it does not really matter. I would have been much more satisfied had the Bears flipped a coin, dropped the loser of the coin toss, and brought in a new guy such as Quinn Gray or Billy Volek. Somebody fresh, relatively undamaged, and willing to fight for a starting position. At this point I would even accept Culpepper as an upgrade.... that is how desperate the situation is.

bringing back 2 guys who have been underperforming for 3 seasons and killing any chance for improvement at the position is just madness.

I really don't believe Orton will be the starter in any way, shape, or form to open the season. Now if Rex gets hurt, then Orton will start, other than that, no he won't. If Orton was really going to have a shot, they would have kept Griese, and let Rex go wherever he wanted to.

Instead they re-sign Rex and trade Griese, that says a lot. I think they'll let Orton believe he has a shot to keep his confidence up, but unless Rex has a monumental fall in the pre season, Kyles on the sideline this year.

"As of this moment, there is no glaring fault teams can exploit with Orton."

Absolutely there is. Shut down the running game and Orton's useless for a comeback because of his inaccuracy and inability to convert consistently on 3rd down. The Vikings did that in Orton's 1st start and that was pretty pathetic offensive football by the Bears.

"With Orton you have a semi-solid game manager who is not going to light up the scoreboard."

Isn't it the job of a decent NFL QB to try and LIGHT UP THE SCOREBOARD?!? Otherwise, what's the point of an offense?!? Having an offense consistently convert on 3rd down and keep getting TDs and FGs is the key to resting your defense and wearing out the opponent's at the same time. Nothing disparages a defense more than an offense breaking them on 3rd down. The Super Bowl vs the Colts proved that.

allbearz:

"As of this moment, there is no glaring fault teams can exploit with Orton."  Absolutely there is. Shut down the running game and Orton's useless for a comeback because of his inaccuracy and inability to convert consistently on 3rd down. The Vikings did that in Orton's 1st start and that was pretty pathetic offensive football by the Bears.

The Bears were actually winning 13-12 at the end of the 3rd Qtr.  In the 4th Qtr, Kyle completed 7 of 11 passes for 73 yards (6.63 YPA).  It was the dumb deep pass to Berrian on a drive where the Bears were moving the ball well - KO was 3 of 4 for 35 yards (8.75 YPA) before Turner stupidly called for the 55 yard "Hail Mary" deep bomb just after the 2 minute warning - that doomed the Bears.  Typical of Turner (he does it to Rex all the time), he panicked and tried for a "big play" to tie up the game immediately rather than just keep chipping away with passes that Kyle was completing consistently...

allbearz:

"With Orton you have a semi-solid game manager who is not going to light up the scoreboard."  Isn't it the job of a decent NFL QB to try and LIGHT UP THE SCOREBOARD?!? Otherwise, what's the point of an offense?!? Having an offense consistently convert on 3rd down and keep getting TDs and FGs is the key to resting your defense and wearing out the opponent's at the same time. Nothing disparages a defense more than an offense breaking them on 3rd down. The Super Bowl vs the Colts proved that.

While the Bears 3rd down conversion rate @ Minnesota was horrible (7%), they still almost won that game.  And it did get much better in the last 2 games - 40% against Green Bay and 43% against the Saints.  It looks like it could have just been a matter of Kyle and the Offense getting used to each other again.  The incredibly LOUD crowd noise at the Metrodome probably did a lot to impair the Bears execution on a lot of plays as well.  The Metrodome is known for being one of the loudest and most hostile stadiums in the NFL. 

Dennis:

allbearz:

"As of this moment, there is no glaring fault teams can exploit with Orton."  Absolutely there is. Shut down the running game and Orton's useless for a comeback because of his inaccuracy and inability to convert consistently on 3rd down. The Vikings did that in Orton's 1st start and that was pretty pathetic offensive football by the Bears.

The Bears were actually winning 13-12 at the end of the 3rd Qtr.  In the 4th Qtr, Kyle completed 7 of 11 passes for 73 yards (6.63 YPA).  It was the dumb deep pass to Berrian on a drive where the Bears were moving the ball well - KO was 3 of 4 for 35 yards (8.75 YPA) before Turner stupidly called for the 55 yard "Hail Mary" deep bomb just after the 2 minute warning - that doomed the Bears.  Typical of Turner (he does it to Rex all the time), he panicked and tried for a "big play" to tie up the game immediately rather than just keep chipping away with passes that Kyle was completing consistently...

allbearz:

"With Orton you have a semi-solid game manager who is not going to light up the scoreboard."  Isn't it the job of a decent NFL QB to try and LIGHT UP THE SCOREBOARD?!? Otherwise, what's the point of an offense?!? Having an offense consistently convert on 3rd down and keep getting TDs and FGs is the key to resting your defense and wearing out the opponent's at the same time. Nothing disparages a defense more than an offense breaking them on 3rd down. The Super Bowl vs the Colts proved that.

While the Bears 3rd down conversion rate @ Minnesota was horrible (7%), they still almost won that game.  And it did get much better in the last 2 games - 40% against Green Bay and 43% against the Saints.  It looks like it could have just been a matter of Kyle and the Offense getting used to each other again.  The incredibly LOUD crowd noise at the Metrodome probably did a lot to impair the Bears execution on a lot of plays as well.  The Metrodome is known for being one of the loudest and most hostile stadiums in the NFL. 

Don't try to pawn that off on Turner. He might of called it, but Orton still threw it. He had checkdowns. When Rex would throw a dumb pass- he took the heat for it. Orton should too. It was an awful pass at an awful time.

"The Metrodome is known for being one of the loudest and most hostile stadiums in the NFL."

I've been to 3 Vikings/Bears games up in that dump (My wife's family is from Minny and they get tix for us every yr) and yes, the noise level is absolutely insane but it still didn't stop Rex from throwing the winning TD to Rashied Davis in '06 so what's Orton's excuse?

allbearz:

"The Metrodome is known for being one of the loudest and most hostile stadiums in the NFL."

I've been to 3 Vikings/Bears games up in that dump (My wife's family is from Minny and they get tix for us every yr) and yes, the noise level is absolutely insane but it still didn't stop Rex from throwing the winning TD to Rashied Davis in '06 so what's Orton's excuse?

psychobear:

Philo:

psychobear:

Philo, while you are on here I just have to ask.  Is there anything in my first post in this thread that you disagree with?

I ask because I felt I was pretty fair to what is going on with both QB's.  I understand any difference in preferance... and agreeing with my post for the most part isn't dooming to Rex.  You may believe that he has improved and can continue to improve for example.

But, I'm curious to see what you would disagree with.

I've been very clear with what I disagree with. That Kyle Orton is anything near a fair NFL QB. People keep using The Rex Grossman to Kyle Orton comparison and then somehow thinking that because they were comparable in 2007 that means Orton became 'good'. Both QB's are below average, even for their careers, but Orton's career has been much worse that Grossman's.

Kyle Orton ahs been an awful starting QB. the only thing in his favor has been the w/l percentage and I don't care what ANY of the homers claim, that had nothing to do with Orton. I'm sick of people equating that 'he didn't lose games' as he won games. That's a pile of semantical BS.

Here's the thing though... in that post I said that both QB's need to improve.  So why are you in disagreement there?

When you are disagreeing with years, is it that you believe that Rex regressed in his progress rather than defenses knowing how to play him?  Because I believe he's the same QB now as he was in 06 but now defenses know how to play him.

I mean, I basically went and said that Kyle had a rough career.  It's, in fact, the first thing I said.  I then went on to say that Rex was the better QB but that now he has worked up to the level of Rex showing he is improving and learning as opposed to a stagnant Rex, thus giving him the nodd in an otherwise even competition as it shows that he should be able to continue to improve (which we seem to agree... needs to happen).

I also didn't even bring up w/l percentage.

I mean, did you read my post or did you just come on here and say you disagreed after you read the title of this thread?

So... I have some fairly specific questions here, can you answer those?  If not, can you maybe bring up points of contention?  Because from what you said there I don't see any.

Catch22:

What i don't get is, in your first paragraph you say Rex on his best day beats Kyle on his best day by a wide margin.  Then you say Rex's worst day is even better than Kyle's worst day.   Making it pretty clear cut that you believe Rex is the better QB.

But then you say, that their play is equal, and since one is rising and the other is stagnet that the one's play who is rising should get the job.  If that were true, i would agree.  However, by your own words you have acknowledged that Rex is and has been the superior QB.  So they aren't equal right now.

Basically what you have is one QB who has shown superior talent, but hasn't improved, and another QB who has shown lesser talent that is slighly improving.....but yet still isn't at the first QB's level.  And with that information, you want to annoit the lesser QB as the starter, even though his play hasnt risen above average yet?

I'm ALL for giving Orton a shot, but lets at least wait till we see some preseason games before we make any judgements.  If their play is even equal in the preseason, then i will be all for Orton being the starter because of the reason you listed....an actually improving Quarterback is better than a stagnet one.  But right now, i dont think we have that.

psychobear:

Catch22:

What i don't get is, in your first paragraph you say Rex on his best day beats Kyle on his best day by a wide margin.  Then you say Rex's worst day is even better than Kyle's worst day.   Making it pretty clear cut that you believe Rex is the better QB.

But then you say, that their play is equal, and since one is rising and the other is stagnet that the one's play who is rising should get the job.  If that were true, i would agree.  However, by your own words you have acknowledged that Rex is and has been the superior QB.  So they aren't equal right now.

Basically what you have is one QB who has shown superior talent, but hasn't improved, and another QB who has shown lesser talent that is slighly improving.....but yet still isn't at the first QB's level.  And with that information, you want to annoit the lesser QB as the starter, even though his play hasnt risen above average yet?

I'm ALL for giving Orton a shot, but lets at least wait till we see some preseason games before we make any judgements.  If their play is even equal in the preseason, then i will be all for Orton being the starter because of the reason you listed....an actually improving Quarterback is better than a stagnet one.  But right now, i dont think we have that.

How did you not get this?  the reason their play is equal is because 1 improved and the other didn't... it's the underlying theme amongst the entire post.

How can I make the assertion that their play is equal?  Because that's the message we are getting in training camp.  Thus, even if Orton isn't where Grossman is yet he's still the rising star yes? 

psychobear:

Catch22:

What i don't get is, in your first paragraph you say Rex on his best day beats Kyle on his best day by a wide margin.  Then you say Rex's worst day is even better than Kyle's worst day.   Making it pretty clear cut that you believe Rex is the better QB.

But then you say, that their play is equal, and since one is rising and the other is stagnet that the one's play who is rising should get the job.  If that were true, i would agree.  However, by your own words you have acknowledged that Rex is and has been the superior QB.  So they aren't equal right now.

Basically what you have is one QB who has shown superior talent, but hasn't improved, and another QB who has shown lesser talent that is slighly improving.....but yet still isn't at the first QB's level.  And with that information, you want to annoit the lesser QB as the starter, even though his play hasnt risen above average yet?

I'm ALL for giving Orton a shot, but lets at least wait till we see some preseason games before we make any judgements.  If their play is even equal in the preseason, then i will be all for Orton being the starter because of the reason you listed....an actually improving Quarterback is better than a stagnet one.  But right now, i dont think we have that.

How did you not get this?  the reason their play is equal is because 1 improved and the other didn't... it's the underlying theme amongst the entire post.

How can I make the assertion that their play is equal?  Because that's the message we are getting in training camp.  Thus, even if Orton isn't where Grossman is yet he's still the rising star yes?