Ole69:

DR.Metal:

if there is a god and by that I'm not talking about a religious one. why assume he wants us to be good? why would he want any species in the universe to be good? would it be just as ''happy' seeing us destroy each other? I don't assume to know anything outside of what I can't learn. why should any of you?

exactly, that was the point of my original post. why do many assume that God is benevolent? I mean I know that view of God as benevolent is fairly unique to Christians, but why do most religions assume, whether or not said God is benevolent, ambivalent, or malevloent, why isn't there a fourth option where that God or Creator couldn't care less?

there is and many of the founding Fathers including Thomas Jefferson believed as such. he believes the universe was Created and pretty much abandoned it. let the universe run its course. watching us without interference, like a TV show.

I would believe in that First than any religion. and if that was my belief I would keep it to myself and not start a church over it. God doesn't care if you are *** or have an abortion. he doesn't care about anything you do.

But of course My belief is in nothing. i don't see my self any different than another animal on this planet. we Live and Die as they do. no after life.

---

DEATH TO ALL BUT METAL.
''I am rally drunk and other thing so of the unlawful things. I am breaking the law!!!!''- Me, really drunk.
I'm Atheist,Pro Choice,Democrat, and a Drinker.

Ole69:

enmorestuff:

Ole69:

jerkyboyz07:

Ole69:

Bear with me; I've had a few. What if there really is a sentient being that has ultimate control of our fates, but it isn't benign? I don't mean the Devil. Like what if there is no Devil, but no God either, but just a higher power who is ambivalent? Maybe we are just the dust mote in the fingernail of a morally impartial entity playing "the Sims" on its keyboard in its mother's basement, and that same basement is yet another dust mote on the fingernail of another who... and so on. Hall of mirrors. If that's the case or even if it isn't, I won't ever know. In the mean time I am going to watch Bears games and.... ...Bear down! Edited for content

Are you holding back on the punchline ? ........ YOUR religeon

say what. terminally lapsed Catholic if you're asking

is there any other kind?

yes. relapsed. like my Dad. He did it to remarry, which is ironic in an Alanis Morrissette sort of way

LOL

---

MID. WAY. JAY.

Ole69:

DR.Metal:

if there is a god and by that I'm not talking about a religious one. why assume he wants us to be good? why would he want any species in the universe to be good? would it be just as ''happy' seeing us destroy each other? I don't assume to know anything outside of what I can't learn. why should any of you?

exactly, that was the point of my original post. why do many assume that God is benevolent? I mean I know that view of God as benevolent is fairly unique to Christians, but why do most religions assume, whether or not said God is benevolent, ambivalent, or malevloent, why isn't there a fourth option where that God or Creator couldn't care less?

Not a question anyone can give you a definitive answer for unless, of course, you know someone who has met God. In spite of man's arrogance there are thousands of questions that can never be answered.,Not by archeologists, scientists, historians, or anyone else. It's something you just gotta feel yourself or learn about in the very end when you take that eternal dirt nap.

As for me, I was taught what Catholics are taught. There is heaven and hell and ya better be good for goodness sake. Very early on in life though I started getting my own feeling and theories of how it may really be. I always wondered if we are God's children, how could he damn any one of us no matter what? Then the answer came to me. He couldn't and he wouldn't. I believe in the end there is mercy for all, even guys with mullets and cutoff shirts.   

---

Spartan:

Ole69:

DR.Metal:

if there is a god and by that I'm not talking about a religious one. why assume he wants us to be good? why would he want any species in the universe to be good? would it be just as ''happy' seeing us destroy each other? I don't assume to know anything outside of what I can't learn. why should any of you?

exactly, that was the point of my original post. why do many assume that God is benevolent? I mean I know that view of God as benevolent is fairly unique to Christians, but why do most religions assume, whether or not said God is benevolent, ambivalent, or malevloent, why isn't there a fourth option where that God or Creator couldn't care less?

Not a question anyone can give you a definitive answer for unless, of course, you know someone who has met God. In spite of man's arrogance there are thousands of questions that can never be answered.,Not by archeologists, scientists, historians, or anyone else. It's something you just gotta feel yourself or learn about in the very end when you take that eternal dirt nap.

As for me, I was taught what Catholics are taught. There is heaven and hell and ya better be good for goodness sake. Very early on in life though I started getting my own feeling and theories of how it may really be. I always wondered if we are God's children, how could he damn any one of us no matter what? Then the answer came to me. He couldn't and he wouldn't. I believe in the end there is mercy for all, even guys with mullets and cutoff shirts.   

I think I stated in one of my posts in this thread that none of this can be answered; it always comes down to an individual's decision. And I am all for someone using faith to give him/her purpose, whether or not I agree with it and as long as it doesn't impinge on another's life (figuratively and literally as in Muslim suicide bombers, Israeli shellers, and Christian abortion clinic bombers) or beliefs.

I was raised Catholic too and my verdict was: if you want to send me to hell for violating these kinds of parameters, be my guest.

I fully endorse freedom of religion as long as people don't get evangelical on me, as opposed to some of the atheist snobs on the board. But then I am an unenlightened American.

But I'm really glad *my* mullet and zubaz are burned into your psyche.

I applaud your cape, sword, resemblance to Urlacher, and fealty to Ares.

---

Sign up for free turd-polishing classes at the Learning Annex

Co-founder, Izzy in the Hizzy Fan Club

Spartan:

 I always wondered if we are God's children, how could he damn any one of us no matter what? Then the answer came to me. He couldn't and he wouldn't. I believe in the end there is mercy for all, even guys with mullets and cutoff shirts.   

 

i can dig that.  i'm agnostic, but there are days when i lean toward believing in a god and that's the kind of god that i'd believe in. 

Ole69:

Spartan:

Ole69:

DR.Metal:

if there is a god and by that I'm not talking about a religious one. why assume he wants us to be good? why would he want any species in the universe to be good? would it be just as ''happy' seeing us destroy each other? I don't assume to know anything outside of what I can't learn. why should any of you?

exactly, that was the point of my original post. why do many assume that God is benevolent? I mean I know that view of God as benevolent is fairly unique to Christians, but why do most religions assume, whether or not said God is benevolent, ambivalent, or malevloent, why isn't there a fourth option where that God or Creator couldn't care less?

Not a question anyone can give you a definitive answer for unless, of course, you know someone who has met God. In spite of man's arrogance there are thousands of questions that can never be answered.,Not by archeologists, scientists, historians, or anyone else. It's something you just gotta feel yourself or learn about in the very end when you take that eternal dirt nap.

As for me, I was taught what Catholics are taught. There is heaven and hell and ya better be good for goodness sake. Very early on in life though I started getting my own feeling and theories of how it may really be. I always wondered if we are God's children, how could he damn any one of us no matter what? Then the answer came to me. He couldn't and he wouldn't. I believe in the end there is mercy for all, even guys with mullets and cutoff shirts.   

I think I stated in one of my posts in this thread that none of this can be answered; it always comes down to an individual's decision. And I am all for someone using faith to give him/her purpose, whether or not I agree with it and as long as it doesn't impinge on another's life (figuratively and literally as in Muslim suicide bombers, Israeli shellers, and Christian abortion clinic bombers) or beliefs. I was raised Catholic too and my verdict was: if you want to send me to hell for violating these kinds of parameters, be my guest. I fully endorse freedom of religion as long as people don't get evangelical on me, as opposed to some of the atheist snobs on the board. But then I am an unenlightened American. But I'm really glad *my* mullet and zubaz are burned into your psyche. I applaud your cape, sword, resemblance to Urlacher, and fealty to Ares.

I don't think faith is necessary to give anyone a purpose. I don't think people who truly have faith require something in return for it such as self-worth or a greater purpose or a promise of everlasting life. 

Muslim suicide bombers don't have faith, they are simply brainwashed. You can't make people have faith in God but you can make them believe if they show faith they will be greatly rewarded for it.

As for an allegiance to Ares, it's not about Ares. Spartans simply want to fight the good fight and die a glorious death.

---

Well, faith is an argument-killer that way -- it can't be reasoned, and if one side has it and the other doesn't, why bother debating it?

---

Sign up for free turd-polishing classes at the Learning Annex

Co-founder, Izzy in the Hizzy Fan Club

Ole69:

Well, faith is an argument-killer that way -- it can't be reasoned, and if one side has it and the other doesn't, why bother debating it?

True enough

---

I believe this "transcendence" of logic in honor of faith is responsible for our latest global conflict. Everyone who's gotten a spiritual PM from his or her God thinks he or she is right.

That and real estate as far as Israel and Palestine are concerned.

It's sad, narcissistic, and irreconcilable. Nature is war.

---

Sign up for free turd-polishing classes at the Learning Annex

Co-founder, Izzy in the Hizzy Fan Club

Ole69:

I believe this "transcendence" of logic in honor of faith is responsible for our latest global conflict. Everyone who's gotten a spiritual PM from his or her God thinks he or she is right. That and real estate as far as Israel and Palestine are concerned. It's sad, narcissistic, and irreconcilable. Nature is war.

Are you drunk again?

 

The global conflict has nothing to do with faith, honor in faith, or even honor itself. It's about pestilent greed my friend. The powers to be have it and will never stop trying to quench it's never-ending thirst. It's a sad story of ill placed power, the inevitable abuse of it, and the all too gullible plebeians who enable it.

---

Spartan:

Ole69:

I believe this "transcendence" of logic in honor of faith is responsible for our latest global conflict. Everyone who's gotten a spiritual PM from his or her God thinks he or she is right. That and real estate as far as Israel and Palestine are concerned. It's sad, narcissistic, and irreconcilable. Nature is war.

Are you drunk again?

 

The global conflict has nothing to do with faith, honor in faith, or even honor itself. It's about pestilent greed my friend. The powers to be have it and will never stop trying to quench it's never-ending thirst. It's a sad story of ill placed power, the inevitable abuse of it, and the all too gullible plebeians who enable it.

Keep the faith. You can't be wrong, right?

---

Sign up for free turd-polishing classes at the Learning Annex

Co-founder, Izzy in the Hizzy Fan Club

First off, really good thread here.

Ton of stuff I'd like to add, but like to keep it short. 

One of my fears (also being a lapsed-catholic) is that when I die the first thing I see is Buddha standing there shaking one of his fingers.  "Wrong one, hombre."  he says as I go to whatever their version of Hell is.

And for those of you that believe we are some cosmic accident..........well that's honestly much harder to conceptualize as even possible than the existance of an actual higher power.  But everyone has the right to believe as they do.  It is the number one mystery in life.  And is strictly between you and whatever.  I will say this though,,,,,life would be easy, but pretty fn boring if we had it all figured out.

And don't get me started on ORGANIZED RELIGION.  That phrase is more offensive than anything else.  Church folk, on the whole, are some of the worst people in the world.  If you were ever a server in your life........you know what I'm talking about.

---

“If God had wanted man to play soccer, He wouldn't have given us arms” - Ditka

Ole69:

Spartan:

Ole69:

I believe this "transcendence" of logic in honor of faith is responsible for our latest global conflict. Everyone who's gotten a spiritual PM from his or her God thinks he or she is right. That and real estate as far as Israel and Palestine are concerned. It's sad, narcissistic, and irreconcilable. Nature is war.

Are you drunk again?

 

The global conflict has nothing to do with faith, honor in faith, or even honor itself. It's about pestilent greed my friend. The powers to be have it and will never stop trying to quench it's never-ending thirst. It's a sad story of ill placed power, the inevitable abuse of it, and the all too gullible plebeians who enable it.

Keep the faith. You can't be wrong, right?

I could be. It's just very unlikely.

---

1985AllOverAgain:

Ole69:

Bear with me; I've had a few. What if there really is a sentient being that has ultimate control of our fates, but it isn't benign? I don't mean the Devil. Like what if there is no Devil, but no God either, but just a higher power who is ambivalent? Maybe we are just the dust mote in the fingernail of a morally impartial entity playing "the Sims" on its keyboard in its mother's basement, and that same basement is yet another dust mote on the fingernail of another who... and so on. Hall of mirrors. If that's the case or even if it isn't, I won't ever know. In the mean time I am going to watch Bears games and.... ...Bear down! Edited for content

I look at it this way:

1.  If I believe in God and:
      a.  He does exist - great, I'll be in Heaven when I die.
      b.  He doesn't exist - oh well, I'll just be dead and won't know the difference anyway.

2.  If I don't believe in God and:
      a.  He doesn't exist - oh well, I'll just be dead and won't know the difference anyway.
      b.  He does exist - I'm in for an eternity of unspeakable Hell.

Bottom line - If God doesn't exist - it won't matter whether I believed in him or not.

HOWEVER, if He does exist - I want to be on the right side of that equation!

On the other hand if Hell is ruled by satan, who WANTS bad things to happen, and you go there for doing bad things, whouldn't Satan REWARD you?

Why would he punish you for doing what he wants?

(I stole that from a comedian I saw the other night, but it's a fair question)

---

Religion and sex are power plays
Manipulate the people for the money they pay
Selling skin, selling God
The numbers look the same on their credit cards
--- Queensryche

Spartan:

Mozart1220:

Ole69:

Bear with me; I've had a few. What if there really is a sentient being that has ultimate control of our fates, but it isn't benign? I don't mean the Devil. Like what if there is no Devil, but no God either, but just a higher power who is ambivalent? Maybe we are just the dust mote in the fingernail of a morally impartial entity playing "the Sims" on its keyboard in its mother's basement, and that same basement is yet another dust mote on the fingernail of another who... and so on. Hall of mirrors. If that's the case or even if it isn't, I won't ever know. In the mean time I am going to watch Bears games and.... ...Bear down! Edited for content

 

If God knows all, past present and future, then He knew 10,000,000 eons before the universe was created that we would have this conversation.

It also means Charles Manson was doing God's will.

If He does NOT know all these things, he's not much of a God anyway.

That conversation REALLY screws with Mormon missionaries.

Charles Manson didn't do God's will. He did his own will. You seem to have missed out on the whole free will thing.

You seem to have missed out on my point, that if God knows EVERYTHING, past present AND future, there IS no "free will". 

---

Religion and sex are power plays
Manipulate the people for the money they pay
Selling skin, selling God
The numbers look the same on their credit cards
--- Queensryche

Mozart1220:

Spartan:

Mozart1220:

Ole69:

Bear with me; I've had a few. What if there really is a sentient being that has ultimate control of our fates, but it isn't benign? I don't mean the Devil. Like what if there is no Devil, but no God either, but just a higher power who is ambivalent? Maybe we are just the dust mote in the fingernail of a morally impartial entity playing "the Sims" on its keyboard in its mother's basement, and that same basement is yet another dust mote on the fingernail of another who... and so on. Hall of mirrors. If that's the case or even if it isn't, I won't ever know. In the mean time I am going to watch Bears games and.... ...Bear down! Edited for content

 

If God knows all, past present and future, then He knew 10,000,000 eons before the universe was created that we would have this conversation.

It also means Charles Manson was doing God's will.

If He does NOT know all these things, he's not much of a God anyway.

That conversation REALLY screws with Mormon missionaries.

Charles Manson didn't do God's will. He did his own will. You seem to have missed out on the whole free will thing.

You seem to have missed out on my point, that if God knows EVERYTHING, past present AND future, there IS no "free will". 

There is always free will. What will be, will be. Call it fate if you wish but it certainly doesn't mean God would have to interject and take away free will.

---

Spartan:

Mozart1220:

Spartan:

Mozart1220:

Ole69:

Bear with me; I've had a few. What if there really is a sentient being that has ultimate control of our fates, but it isn't benign? I don't mean the Devil. Like what if there is no Devil, but no God either, but just a higher power who is ambivalent? Maybe we are just the dust mote in the fingernail of a morally impartial entity playing "the Sims" on its keyboard in its mother's basement, and that same basement is yet another dust mote on the fingernail of another who... and so on. Hall of mirrors. If that's the case or even if it isn't, I won't ever know. In the mean time I am going to watch Bears games and.... ...Bear down! Edited for content

 

If God knows all, past present and future, then He knew 10,000,000 eons before the universe was created that we would have this conversation.

It also means Charles Manson was doing God's will.

If He does NOT know all these things, he's not much of a God anyway.

That conversation REALLY screws with Mormon missionaries.

Charles Manson didn't do God's will. He did his own will. You seem to have missed out on the whole free will thing.

You seem to have missed out on my point, that if God knows EVERYTHING, past present AND future, there IS no "free will". 

There is always free will. What will be, will be. Call it fate if you wish but it certainly doesn't mean God would have to interject and take away free will.

But if he knows everything that's going to happen in advance, we don't HAVE free will. We may THINK we do, but we are just doing what God knows we will do no matter what. Even if we change our mind s at the last millisecong, God knew we were going to do that too.

Get it now?

---

Religion and sex are power plays
Manipulate the people for the money they pay
Selling skin, selling God
The numbers look the same on their credit cards
--- Queensryche

Mozart1220:

Spartan:

Mozart1220:

Spartan:

Mozart1220:

Ole69:

Bear with me; I've had a few. What if there really is a sentient being that has ultimate control of our fates, but it isn't benign? I don't mean the Devil. Like what if there is no Devil, but no God either, but just a higher power who is ambivalent? Maybe we are just the dust mote in the fingernail of a morally impartial entity playing "the Sims" on its keyboard in its mother's basement, and that same basement is yet another dust mote on the fingernail of another who... and so on. Hall of mirrors. If that's the case or even if it isn't, I won't ever know. In the mean time I am going to watch Bears games and.... ...Bear down! Edited for content

 

If God knows all, past present and future, then He knew 10,000,000 eons before the universe was created that we would have this conversation.

It also means Charles Manson was doing God's will.

If He does NOT know all these things, he's not much of a God anyway.

That conversation REALLY screws with Mormon missionaries.

Charles Manson didn't do God's will. He did his own will. You seem to have missed out on the whole free will thing.

You seem to have missed out on my point, that if God knows EVERYTHING, past present AND future, there IS no "free will". 

There is always free will. What will be, will be. Call it fate if you wish but it certainly doesn't mean God would have to interject and take away free will.

But if he knows everything that's going to happen in advance, we don't HAVE free will. We may THINK we do, but we are just doing what God knows we will do no matter what. Even if we change our mind s at the last millisecong, God knew we were going to do that too.

Get it now?

I understand what you're trying to say but man still has free will in this scenario. God knows what we are about to do and realizes we do it cause we do have free will. If he stopped us from excercising that free will then he could change the outcome. If he does not choose to interfere then free will still exists whether he knows what's about to happen or not. Choices are still ours to make unless God dictates what will happen, then there would be no choice or free will and we'd just have to accept our fate.

---

You speak as if you know it to be true. Your guess as as good/bad as the next person.

---

DEATH TO ALL BUT METAL.
''I am rally drunk and other thing so of the unlawful things. I am breaking the law!!!!''- Me, really drunk.
I'm Atheist,Pro Choice,Democrat, and a Drinker.

Spartan:

Mozart1220:

Spartan:

Mozart1220:

Spartan:

Mozart1220:

Ole69:

Bear with me; I've had a few. What if there really is a sentient being that has ultimate control of our fates, but it isn't benign? I don't mean the Devil. Like what if there is no Devil, but no God either, but just a higher power who is ambivalent? Maybe we are just the dust mote in the fingernail of a morally impartial entity playing "the Sims" on its keyboard in its mother's basement, and that same basement is yet another dust mote on the fingernail of another who... and so on. Hall of mirrors. If that's the case or even if it isn't, I won't ever know. In the mean time I am going to watch Bears games and.... ...Bear down! Edited for content

 

If God knows all, past present and future, then He knew 10,000,000 eons before the universe was created that we would have this conversation.

It also means Charles Manson was doing God's will.

If He does NOT know all these things, he's not much of a God anyway.

That conversation REALLY screws with Mormon missionaries.

Charles Manson didn't do God's will. He did his own will. You seem to have missed out on the whole free will thing.

You seem to have missed out on my point, that if God knows EVERYTHING, past present AND future, there IS no "free will". 

There is always free will. What will be, will be. Call it fate if you wish but it certainly doesn't mean God would have to interject and take away free will.

But if he knows everything that's going to happen in advance, we don't HAVE free will. We may THINK we do, but we are just doing what God knows we will do no matter what. Even if we change our mind s at the last millisecong, God knew we were going to do that too.

Get it now?

I understand what you're trying to say but man still has free will in this scenario. God knows what we are about to do and realizes we do it cause we do have free will. If he stopped us from excercising that free will then he could change the outcome. If he does not choose to interfere then free will still exists whether he knows what's about to happen or not. Choices are still ours to make unless God dictates what will happen, then there would be no choice or free will and we'd just have to accept our fate.

If God knows every decision we will make in advance, freewill is an illusion. 

---

Religion and sex are power plays
Manipulate the people for the money they pay
Selling skin, selling God
The numbers look the same on their credit cards
--- Queensryche

Mozart1220:

 

If God knows every decision we will make in advance, freewill is an illusion. 

I disagree.   Just because god may KNOW what we're going to do doesn't mean its not our choice.  If a god exists then he exists outside the laws of space and time, meaning time is essentially irrelevant.  With that in mind, think of it as watching a replay of a football game you've seen before.  You know what the score is going to be, but that doesn't mean you're controlling what the teams do. 

---

the "Che Guevara" of Fans First

bearmick:

Mozart1220:

 

If God knows every decision we will make in advance, freewill is an illusion. 

I disagree.   Just because god may KNOW what we're going to do doesn't mean its not our choice. 

It means we can't change what God has already planned or forseen.  Thus, the "myth" of freewill.

 

If a god exists then he exists outside the laws of space and time, meaning time is essentially irrelevant.  With that in mind, think of it as watching a replay of a football game you've seen before.  You know what the score is going to be, but that doesn't mean you're controlling what the teams do. 

And they can't change what they have already done.  Bad analogy.

---

Religion and sex are power plays
Manipulate the people for the money they pay
Selling skin, selling God
The numbers look the same on their credit cards
--- Queensryche

If there is a higher power beyond this universe, do you really think it cares what people argue about on internet messageboards?

---

MID. WAY. JAY.

enmorestuff:

If there is a higher power beyond this universe, do you really think it cares what people argue about on internet messageboards?

It probably doesn't care if two same sex people get married either, but that doesn't stop the loonies from trying to stop it.

---

Religion and sex are power plays
Manipulate the people for the money they pay
Selling skin, selling God
The numbers look the same on their credit cards
--- Queensryche

Before Edwin hubble came along we thought we were apart of the sole galaxy in the universe. He discovered that there are BILLIONS of other galaxys in the universe. Each galaxy holding roughly a billion stars.

Math has unlocked alot of secrets in our world and a simple probablity equation leaves no doubt that there is other life out there. The biggest variable is if the life is STILL there and hasnt become extinct before our time.

Do you think that these other life forms question why they exist? Do you think that they also would feel comfortable with an answer? probably. DO you think they would have any clue what christianity or islam is?

What i find amazing is how religion has fought off the crushing blows of heliocentrism (sun being at the center instead of the earth) evolution (self explanatory) and the planets we can detect around other stars.

SOMETHING created the universe...there has to be a higher being, but the idea that he is watching us? Come on now. Its a nice way to keep civilization... well civil, but far fetched to say the least. I used to laugh at scientology(still do actually) but most other religions have some prettttty ridiculous stories as well.

 

Found this video pretty neat. What the hubble see's when looking at the most empty part of the nights sky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgg2tpUVbXQ&feature=channel