dbears54: I will update the #'s correctly as have already done, We disagree about something,but its beyond tedious now - have stopped discussing it. I'm bored of it and its my thread, can't imagine how others feel. I'd strongly suggest if you can't get beyond it, to at least have the common courtesy to stop reading thread or repeating the thing for the 25th time. thank you for not ruining the thread anymore.
I will update the #'s correctly as have already done, We disagree about something,but its beyond tedious now - have stopped discussing it. I'm bored of it and its my thread, can't imagine how others feel. I'd strongly suggest if you can't get beyond it, to at least have the common courtesy to stop reading thread or repeating the thing for the 25th time.
thank you for not ruining the thread anymore.
dbears54,
A few points:
#1
The title of the thread is "2008-Chicago Bears Salary Cap Thread". These posts have beenabout the correct way to compute the available salary cap if a player is cut. They are completely ON TOPIC, so they are not "ruining" anything.
#2
You seem to forget that I didn't start this. Bearsfansincebirth brought this up.
He pointed out you were computing the cap numbers for a player that is cut incorrectly.You and he then had a lengthy back and forth about this (during which you were quiteinsulting and rude). Another poster, Esraem, then chimed in and agreed with BearsfanSincebirth.
It was at this point that I got involved and also tried to point out what you were doing wrong.Further, a FOURTH poster, porkchopsnapplesauce, got involved and also told you that you weredoing the math incorrectly. Not to mention that I gave you a link to the "AskTheCommish" websitewhich also indicates that you are doing it incorrectly.
#3
There are FOUR different people, plus the "AskTheCommish" website, that are telling you that you are wrong.
#4
Given how rude you were to BearsFanSinceBirth, your comment "thank you for not ruining the threadanymore" is the height of hypocrisy. Come on, stay in character and tell me to screw off.
#5
You made an honest mistake. Just man up, admit to it, edit the earlier post (#3 in the thread)where you list the cap hits to cut the players, and do it correctly in the future. It isn't thathard.
Iffybiz: A few things. 1. The 500,000 roster bonus you have going to Muhammad is Miller's according to Rotoworld. 2. Muhsin received a 12 million dollar signing bonus according to rotoworld spread over 6 years, that would be 2 million per year, not 1. 3. Benson received 17 million in guaranteed money but the only source I've seen said he only received a 4 million dollar signing bonus. Can you clarify your figures there? 4. The new CBA allows for players to be cut before June 1 and still spread out their cap hit as if they were cut later. 5. The Bears can save close to 3 million by just converting Olsen's option bonus into a signing bonus and spreading out the cap hit over the rest of the contract.
A few things.
1. The 500,000 roster bonus you have going to Muhammad is Miller's according to Rotoworld.
2. Muhsin received a 12 million dollar signing bonus according to rotoworld spread over 6 years, that would be 2 million per year, not 1.
3. Benson received 17 million in guaranteed money but the only source I've seen said he only received a 4 million dollar signing bonus. Can you clarify your figures there?
4. The new CBA allows for players to be cut before June 1 and still spread out their cap hit as if they were cut later.
5. The Bears can save close to 3 million by just converting Olsen's option bonus into a signing bonus and spreading out the cap hit over the rest of the contract.
Rotoworld a good place as a start,but they are lazy, the "local papers" give you alot more specifics, as was the case for moose, being a $12 million gurantee(in 3 sections not just one Signing bonus).. you also see this with rotawolrd being wrong on Ced's contract as been reported mnay times already in trib and suntimes, benson lost out on 1.73 million in LBTE's this year( rotoworld didn't have it and included it in ced's SB instread as another mistake.)
1. rotoworld has many #'s way off.. both the suntimes and trib reported that the $12 million guranted for mosse was broken down to a #6 million SB bonus a $4 million roster bonus in year 1 and# 2 milion in year 2..A simple search will show this fact.
2. If you cut a plyer BEFORE june 1st all his unamortized signing bonus counts this year, IF cut AFTER june 1st, you can split it over 2 years.. there is one odd exception,but no use going into it unless applies to a specific player
3. Agreed "can" change olsen to a signing bonus, but until do( and may not want to create the dead space in 2008-2010), you have to account as a roster bonus. becuase that is what it is now.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20050302/ai_n12945476
For Muhammad, who will be 32 in May, the deal could be viewed as a three-year, $16 million package, but he said that he plans to fulfill the entire contract and that he is not slowing down after coming off a career year.
His $12 million in bonus money comes in three parts: a $6 million signing bonus, a $2 million roster bonus this year and a $4 million roster bonus next year. It will be money well spent if he continues to produce the way he has. His 16 touchdowns last season for the Carolina Panthers were 13 more than Bears wide receivers had as a unit.
Thanks for the breakdown of Moose. This would mean he's in the "cutable" group too. I've never really seen anyplace including rotoworld show the complete breakdown of Benson's contract and I have searched. I did see one place where someone had blogged the supposed contracts of the top 5 picks that year for comparison and all they showed was a 4 million dollar signing bonus to Benson. I was wondering if you could show the article you're basing his numbers on or at least breakdown the specifics?
The new CBA allows an exemption of either one or two players (I can't rememeber which) where a player can be cut on March 1 or later and have it count as though they cut him after June 1. It just doesn't "show up on the books" until after June 1. Meaning they have to carry his cap number until then.
I doubt they'd worry to much over spreading out Olsen's money since his original signing bonus was pretty paltry. They could do the same thing with Vasher's bonus as well but with his contracts 2+ million a year in bonus hits, I doubt the savings would be worth it. With Olsen they'll likely keep it the same as well unless they want to spend a bit more.
Iffybiz: Thanks for the breakdown of Moose. This would mean he's in the "cutable" group too. I've never really seen anyplace including rotoworld show the complete breakdown of Benson's contract and I have searched. I did see one place where someone had blogged the supposed contracts of the top 5 picks that year for comparison and all they showed was a 4 million dollar signing bonus to Benson. I was wondering if you could show the article you're basing his numbers on or at least breakdown the specifics? The new CBA allows an exemption of either one or two players (I can't rememeber which) where a player can be cut on March 1 or later and have it count as though they cut him after June 1. It just doesn't "show up on the books" until after June 1. Meaning they have to carry his cap number until then. I doubt they'd worry to much over spreading out Olsen's money since his original signing bonus was pretty paltry. They could do the same thing with Vasher's bonus as well but with his contracts 2+ million a year in bonus hits, I doubt the savings would be worth it. With Olsen they'll likely keep it the same as well unless they want to spend a bit more.
the reason for no SB on olsen, was because bears were up against the rookie cap, and it allowed them to circumvent the CBA rookie cap,, it been a technigue many teams now use.. Most ( like rotoworld), do not realize how its changed and keep reporting "gurantees" as signing bonus, when it hasn't been this way for years( last year many got NO signing bonuses)... but if and until the bears change it, its Stays as a roster bonus..and think its 2 on the exception( and think need either 5-7 years in league)
a good article on it:
http://www.sportsbusinessnews.com/_news/news_344844.php
Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams, the first selection in this year's draft by the Houston Texans, features a basic value of $54 million and a maximum worth, counting all possible bonuses, incentives and escalators, of $62.1 million. This was written by Len Pasquarelli appeared at ESPN.com
The guaranteed money in the contract is initially $21.75 million, and then jumps to $26.5 million after the Texans exercise an option next spring.
At this point people are just arguing symantics. Probably best if we all just move on and do our best to make sure the numbers are as good as we can get them (for those who care)
cmen54:dabears54 is correct..bascially what happens is the 2.7 million needs to count against the cap for 2008 now you subtract the salary and RB for the year leaves 1 mil cap hit. you add 08.09,and 10 signing bonuses into 08 and you subtract his salary because he is not here and that leaves you with 1 mil agaisnt the cap
Cmen54,
Griese's cap hit if he is kept is $2.6M (salary + roster bonus + $900K amortized signing bonus for 2008). Griese cap hit if he is cut is $2.7M (08,09,10 portion of signing bonus).
The "extra" cap hit is therefore $2.7M - $2.6M = $100K, not $1M.
Dbear54's error was that the original cap figure already included the 2008 portion of the signing bonus, so it was counted twice. Just look at how the $2.6M and $2.7M are computed, and you'll see that the $900K signing bonus for 2008 is counted twice, which is why he says the Bears lose $1M in cap space, when in reality its only $100K in extra cap space.
Anyway....seriously, let's not worry about this any more. None of us are managing the cap, and I'm sure Cliff Stein and JA have the math down.
the_elric: cmen54:dabears54 is correct..bascially what happens is the 2.7 million needs to count against the cap for 2008 now you subtract the salary and RB for the year leaves 1 mil cap hit. you add 08.09,and 10 signing bonuses into 08 and you subtract his salary because he is not here and that leaves you with 1 mil agaisnt the cap Cmen54, Griese's cap hit if he is kept is $2.6M (salary + roster bonus + $900K amortized signing bonus for 2008). Griese cap hit if he is cut is $2.7M (08,09,10 portion of signing bonus). The "extra" cap hit is therefore $2.7M - $2.6M = $100K, not $1M. Dbear54's error was that the original cap figure already included the 2008 portion of the signing bonus, so it was counted twice. Just look at how the $2.6M and $2.7M are computed, and you'll see that the $900K signing bonus for 2008 is counted twice, which is why he says the Bears lose $1M in cap space, when in reality its only $100K in extra cap space. Anyway....seriously, let's not worry about this any more. None of us are managing the cap, and I'm sure Cliff Stein and JA have the math down.
repeating an error 20 times never makes it true. elric
serious question for you. Forget griese.. If you cut a player is the formula:?
A. Unamortized bonus( 2008 and beyond) - 2008 salary -2008 bonuses( roster/lbte)= cap saving/costs
-or-
b. Unamortized Bonus( 2008 and beyond)- 2008 salary -2008 bonus(roster/ltbe) -2008 umamortized cap again= savings/costs
Just answer is it "a' or "B"
And is actually the "B" answer the one that is counting the 2008 unamortized bonus twice?
thank you
cmen, you are correct
dbears54: the_elric: cmen54:dabears54 is correct..bascially what happens is the 2.7 million needs to count against the cap for 2008 now you subtract the salary and RB for the year leaves 1 mil cap hit. you add 08.09,and 10 signing bonuses into 08 and you subtract his salary because he is not here and that leaves you with 1 mil agaisnt the cap Cmen54, Griese's cap hit if he is kept is $2.6M (salary + roster bonus + $900K amortized signing bonus for 2008). Griese cap hit if he is cut is $2.7M (08,09,10 portion of signing bonus). The "extra" cap hit is therefore $2.7M - $2.6M = $100K, not $1M. Dbear54's error was that the original cap figure already included the 2008 portion of the signing bonus, so it was counted twice. Just look at how the $2.6M and $2.7M are computed, and you'll see that the $900K signing bonus for 2008 is counted twice, which is why he says the Bears lose $1M in cap space, when in reality its only $100K in extra cap space. Anyway....seriously, let's not worry about this any more. None of us are managing the cap, and I'm sure Cliff Stein and JA have the math down. repeating an error 20 times never makes it true. elric serious question for you. Forget griese.. If you cut a player is the formula:? A. Unamortized bonus( 2008 and beyond) - 2008 salary -2008 bonuses( roster/lbte)= cap saving/costs -or- b. Unamortized Bonus( 2008 and beyond)- 2008 salary -2008 bonus(roster/ltbe) -2008 umamortized cap again= savings/costs Just answer is it "a' or "B" And is actually the "B" answer the one that is counting the 2008 unamortized bonus twice? thank you cmen, you are correct
Dbears54, three other people have been telling you the same thing. So, my portion of the "twenty" times probably only amounts to 4 or 5.
"B" is the correct formula to use. It gives you the 2008 cap hit of cutting a player relative to the 2008 cap hit if he is kept. Answer "A" is double accounting the 2008 portion of the signing bonus.
Dbears54, you agreed several posts ago that 1) Griese's cap hit if he is kept is $2.6M, and 2) Griese's cap hit if he is cut is $2.7M. So, please explain to me how it "costs" the Bears an extra $1M in 2008 cap space if we cut him (this is the number you posted in the 3rd post of this thread)?
*edit*
To be clear, when you update the Bear's 2008 cap space that they have used up as players are cut, you should do the following:
2008_cap_used (after cut) = 2008_cap_used (before cut) - 2008 salary/roster bonus + unamortized signing bonus due in future years (after 2008)
the_elric: dbears54: the_elric: cmen54:dabears54 is correct..bascially what happens is the 2.7 million needs to count against the cap for 2008 now you subtract the salary and RB for the year leaves 1 mil cap hit. you add 08.09,and 10 signing bonuses into 08 and you subtract his salary because he is not here and that leaves you with 1 mil agaisnt the cap Cmen54, Griese's cap hit if he is kept is $2.6M (salary + roster bonus + $900K amortized signing bonus for 2008). Griese cap hit if he is cut is $2.7M (08,09,10 portion of signing bonus). The "extra" cap hit is therefore $2.7M - $2.6M = $100K, not $1M. Dbear54's error was that the original cap figure already included the 2008 portion of the signing bonus, so it was counted twice. Just look at how the $2.6M and $2.7M are computed, and you'll see that the $900K signing bonus for 2008 is counted twice, which is why he says the Bears lose $1M in cap space, when in reality its only $100K in extra cap space. Anyway....seriously, let's not worry about this any more. None of us are managing the cap, and I'm sure Cliff Stein and JA have the math down. repeating an error 20 times never makes it true. elric serious question for you. Forget griese.. If you cut a player is the formula:? A. Unamortized bonus( 2008 and beyond) - 2008 salary -2008 bonuses( roster/lbte)= cap saving/costs -or- b. Unamortized Bonus( 2008 and beyond)- 2008 salary -2008 bonus(roster/ltbe) -2008 umamortized cap again= savings/costs Just answer is it "a' or "B" And is actually the "B" answer the one that is counting the 2008 unamortized bonus twice? thank you cmen, you are correct Dbears54, three other people have been telling you the same thing. So, my portion of the "twenty" times probably only amounts to 4 or 5. "B" is the correct formula to use. It gives you the 2008 cap hit of cutting a player relative to the 2008 cap hit if he is kept. Answer "A" is double accounting the 2008 portion of the signing bonus. Dbears54, you agreed several posts ago that 1) Griese's cap hit if he is kept is $2.6M, and 2) Griese's cap hit if he is cut is $2.7M. So, please explain to me how it "costs" the Bears an extra $1M in 2008 cap space if we cut him (this is the number you posted in the 3rd post of this thread)? *edit* To be clear, when you update the Bear's 2008 cap space that they have used up as players are cut, you should do the following: 2008_cap_used (after cut) = 2008_cap_used (before cut) - 2008 salary/roster bonus + unamortized signing bonus due in future years (after 2008)
and you then say:
++B" is the correct formula to use. It gives you the 2008 cap hit of cutting a player relative to the 2008 cap hit if he is kept. Answer "A" is double accounting the 2008 portion of the signing bonus.++
can you PLEASE explain how you are DOUBLING COUNTING the 2008 portion in "A" and not "B".. when "B" is the one with the 2008 bonus twice.
thank you.
strange to say the least
dbears54: the_elric: dbears54: the_elric: cmen54:dabears54 is correct..bascially what happens is the 2.7 million needs to count against the cap for 2008 now you subtract the salary and RB for the year leaves 1 mil cap hit. you add 08.09,and 10 signing bonuses into 08 and you subtract his salary because he is not here and that leaves you with 1 mil agaisnt the cap Cmen54, Griese's cap hit if he is kept is $2.6M (salary + roster bonus + $900K amortized signing bonus for 2008). Griese cap hit if he is cut is $2.7M (08,09,10 portion of signing bonus). The "extra" cap hit is therefore $2.7M - $2.6M = $100K, not $1M. Dbear54's error was that the original cap figure already included the 2008 portion of the signing bonus, so it was counted twice. Just look at how the $2.6M and $2.7M are computed, and you'll see that the $900K signing bonus for 2008 is counted twice, which is why he says the Bears lose $1M in cap space, when in reality its only $100K in extra cap space. Anyway....seriously, let's not worry about this any more. None of us are managing the cap, and I'm sure Cliff Stein and JA have the math down. repeating an error 20 times never makes it true. elric serious question for you. Forget griese.. If you cut a player is the formula:? A. Unamortized bonus( 2008 and beyond) - 2008 salary -2008 bonuses( roster/lbte)= cap saving/costs -or- b. Unamortized Bonus( 2008 and beyond)- 2008 salary -2008 bonus(roster/ltbe) -2008 umamortized cap again= savings/costs Just answer is it "a' or "B" And is actually the "B" answer the one that is counting the 2008 unamortized bonus twice? thank you cmen, you are correct Dbears54, three other people have been telling you the same thing. So, my portion of the "twenty" times probably only amounts to 4 or 5. "B" is the correct formula to use. It gives you the 2008 cap hit of cutting a player relative to the 2008 cap hit if he is kept. Answer "A" is double accounting the 2008 portion of the signing bonus. Dbears54, you agreed several posts ago that 1) Griese's cap hit if he is kept is $2.6M, and 2) Griese's cap hit if he is cut is $2.7M. So, please explain to me how it "costs" the Bears an extra $1M in 2008 cap space if we cut him (this is the number you posted in the 3rd post of this thread)? *edit* To be clear, when you update the Bear's 2008 cap space that they have used up as players are cut, you should do the following: 2008_cap_used (after cut) = 2008_cap_used (before cut) - 2008 salary/roster bonus + unamortized signing bonus due in future years (after 2008) A. Unamortized bonus( 2008 and beyond) - 2008 salary -2008 bonuses( roster/lbte)= cap saving/costs -or- b. Unamortized Bonus( 2008 and beyond)- 2008 salary -2008 bonus(roster/ltbe) -2008 umamortized cap again= savings/costs and you then say: ++B" is the correct formula to use. It gives you the 2008 cap hit of cutting a player relative to the 2008 cap hit if he is kept. Answer "A" is double accounting the 2008 portion of the signing bonus.++ can you PLEASE explain how you are DOUBLING COUNTING the 2008 portion in "A" and not "B".. when "B" is the one with the 2008 bonus twice. thank you. strange to say the least
Dbears, in the 3rd post of this thread you list the 2008 cap hit/savings (relative to keeping the player) for cutting players.
Equation "B" is the same as
extra_2008_cap_hit = 2008_cap_hit_if_cut - 2008_cap_hit_if_kept.
Let me ask you this question. Perhaps this will clear everything up.
In the first post of this thread, you list all the players under contract for 2008 and break down how much cap space they take up by salary, roster(ltbe) bonus, and the unamortized portion of their signing bonus. You list the total 2008 cap space currently taken up by players as $96,758,499. I believe your intent is to update this number as the Bears cut players, re-sign some of their guys, sign some free agents, etc, this offseason. We all agree that the Bears can't go above $116M without being in violation of the NFL salary cap next season.
My question:
If Griese is cut, the cap space taken up by players, accounting for Griese being cut, will then be
2008 cap space used (after griese is cut ) = $96,758,499 + $100,000 = $96,858,499
Do you agree with that last number? If not, what is the correct number? Thanks.
forget it elric
i asked you 3 times directly and nicely, DOES:
Does equation "A" or "B" count a 2008 unamortized bonus twice?..
3 times you avoid this simple question( because we all can see its "B").. and go off on a different argument to try and avoid this simple question.
its called a "strawman argument"
And its tedious now. If you can't see the words "2008 unamortized bonus" TWICE in equation "B" and not "A".. I really can't help you, nor can explain it anymore, going nowhere.
We shall agree to disagree if can't see it, because come hell or highwater I'll never see a 2008 unamortized bonus twice in equation "A".. and some how you choose to not see the "2008 unamotized bonus AGAIN" in equation "B".. so going in circles, no thanks
no changing the argument no going from a "cash model" to a "budget model" on costs will change the above equations
dbears54: forget it elric i asked you 3 times directly and nicely, DOES: A. Unamortized bonus( 2008 and beyond) - 2008 salary -2008 bonuses( roster/lbte)= cap saving/costs -or- b. Unamortized Bonus( 2008 and beyond)- 2008 salary -2008 bonus(roster/ltbe) -2008 umamortized cap again= savings/costs Does equation "A" or "B" count a 2008 unamortized bonus twice?.. 3 times you avoid this simple question( because we all can see its "B").. and go off on a different argument to try and avoid this simple question. its called a "strawman argument" And its tedious now. If you can't see the words "2008 unamortized bonus" TWICE in equation "B" and not "A".. I really can't help you, nor can explain it anymore, going nowhere. We shall agree to disagree if can't see it, because come hell or highwater I'll never see a 2008 unamortized bonus twice in equation "A".. and some how you choose to not see the "2008 unamotized bonus AGAIN" in equation "B".. so going in circles, no thanks no changing the argument no going from a "cash model" to a "budget model" on costs will change the above equations
Dbears, I answered your question in a previous post. Re-read my earlier posts. I gave you a direct answer to the question. I already told you that equation "B" is the correct one to use. Equation "A" double accounts the 2008 portion of the signing bonus. Equation "A" double accounts it since we are trying to compute the extra cap space taken up by a player if he is cut. This is the number you computed in post #3 of this thread.
Perhaps we are arguing semantics, since neither you nor the four people you've argued with on this point are changing their minds.
Can you please answer my last question, as I sincerely hope this will clear our miscommunication up.
My question from earlier:
"If Griese is cut, the cap space taken up by players, accounting for Griese being cut, will then be
Do you agree with that last number? If not, what is the correct number? Thanks."
I think you may be mistaken here. I see what you are doing, it's something to the effect of:
2.7 million in unamortized bonus money - salary and roster bonus= 1 million
However, this isn't the case where the bonus money for this year was an either/or thing. The $900,000 would have come out of the cap either way so in reality it's:
1.8 million (2009 and 2010 bonus money) - salary and roster bonus= $100,000.
The $100,000 figure would be the total "difference" in the cap number. You either have to add this years bonus figure to both sides of the equation or neither since it's a constant either way.
The bottom line is this. His cap number this year is 2.6 million (salary + roster bonus + 1/5 of his signing bonus which is $900,000).
If the Bears cut him tommorrow how much would he then cost? The leftover bonus money for 2008-2010 which would be 2.7 million. $100,000 is the difference in the cap number.
Iffybiz: dbears54, I think you may be mistaken here. I see what you are doing, it's something to the effect of: 2.7 million in unamortized bonus money - salary and roster bonus= 1 million However, this isn't the case where the bonus money for this year was an either/or thing. The $900,000 would have come out of the cap either way so in reality it's: 1.8 million (2009 and 2010 bonus money) - salary and roster bonus= $100,000. The $100,000 figure would be the total "difference" in the cap number. You either have to add this years bonus figure to both sides of the equation or neither since it's a constant either way. The bottom line is this. His cap number this year is 2.6 million (salary + roster bonus + 1/5 of his signing bonus which is $900,000). If the Bears cut him tommorrow how much would he then cost? The leftover bonus money for 2008-2010 which would be 2.7 million. $100,000 is the difference in the cap number.
Thank you, Iffybiz.
There are now five different people telling him this and he simply refuses to acknowlege it or simply can't understand it.
He listed the extra 2008 cap hit for cutting some players (i.e. Walker, Griese, Miller, etc) in the third post of this thread. Bearsfansincebirth pointed out to him that he was in error, and its been a running gun battle ever since.
It's actually six people telling him this. WHATSLOVEGOTTODOWITHIT pointed this out to him first, at which time BearsfanSincebirth interjected, followed by Esraem, followed by me, etc, etc.....
I've refigured some of the cuts and come up with:
Walker saves 4.5 million
Miller saves 3.7 million
Mike Brown (wasn't mentioned on his list) 2.4 million
Olsen's roster bonus could be converted to a signing bonus saving 3 million appo.
Moose costs .4 million to cut
Griese costs .1 million to cut
A. A. costs .27 million to cut
Benson costs 4 million to cut
Without cutting Benson but making the other moves cuts 12.4 million from the Bears current cap amount and gives them 33 million to spend. However, you also have to figure in the rookie pool amount (about 5-6 million I'm guessing) and would have to replace everyone you cut as well as re-sign their own FA or replace them as well.
Lets say the Bears cut everyone but Benson on this list and the rookie pool is 5.3 million. Your starting with 33.3 million so after the rookie pool you have 28 million to spend. Lets say you want to sign Flozell Adams and he costs about 10 million (franchise tag is 9.6). Now you have 18 million. Out of that you have to get two QB, two safeties and both starting WR and a LB. For the sake of argument you could replace a QB, S, WR and LB in the draft. So you have 18 million to sign a QB, WR and S. Should be enough if spent wisely. You might have enough to keep either Briggs or Berrian and could easily sign Grossman under that limit if they wanted to or keep Griese if they don't.