"At this stage of his career, Grossman has no excuse not to win the job and display the consistency he should be capable of showing. There is both urgency and opportunity, and players as good as Grossman's promise once suggested take advantage of such situations."
I do not think I have read a truer statement than this. If Rex cannot win this battle, then he should be relegated to backup, or worse. He has the talent, he just needs to show the consistnacy.
He has also shown the capacity to respond from adversity. He was almost benched in 2006 (Griese started taking 1/2 the snaps after the minny game). He responed with 114, 104, and 80 ratings against STL, TB, and DET. He came in last year after the benching and posted an 80 rating. Not to mention coming back from injury.
Hopefully this "competition" makes him improve to good rex most of the time and OK rex the rest of the time (no Bad Rex).
In any event, we will know in a matter of a few weeks.
True... although he has had a lot of second chances to shine, this is his LAST CHANCE.
There is no "Good" or "Bad" Rex - just Rex.
If we support him, we support him. If we don't, we don't.
Wolfblade75:True... although he has had a lot of second chances to shine, this is his LAST CHANCE. There is no "Good" or "Bad" Rex - just Rex. If we support him, we support him. If we don't, we don't.
bubbashucker: "At this stage of his career, Grossman has no excuse not to win the job and display the consistency he should be capable of showing. There is both urgency and opportunity, and players as good as Grossman's promise once suggested take advantage of such situations." I do not think I have read a truer statement than this. If Rex cannot win this battle, then he should be relegated to backup, or worse. He has the talent, he just needs to show the consistnacy. He has also shown the capacity to respond from adversity. He was almost benched in 2006 (Griese started taking 1/2 the snaps after the minny game). He responed with 114, 104, and 80 ratings against STL, TB, and DET. He came in last year after the benching and posted an 80 rating. Not to mention coming back from injury. Hopefully this "competition" makes him improve to good rex most of the time and OK rex the rest of the time (no Bad Rex). In any event, we will know in a matter of a few weeks.
That's true. But his numbers seemed to dip both times after he started to feel like the unchallenged starter again. If Rex does win the competition, the Bears will have to keep the threat of Kyle coming in and taking over for all 16 games this season...
Dennis: bubbashucker: "At this stage of his career, Grossman has no excuse not to win the job and display the consistency he should be capable of showing. There is both urgency and opportunity, and players as good as Grossman's promise once suggested take advantage of such situations." I do not think I have read a truer statement than this. If Rex cannot win this battle, then he should be relegated to backup, or worse. He has the talent, he just needs to show the consistnacy. He has also shown the capacity to respond from adversity. He was almost benched in 2006 (Griese started taking 1/2 the snaps after the minny game). He responed with 114, 104, and 80 ratings against STL, TB, and DET. He came in last year after the benching and posted an 80 rating. Not to mention coming back from injury. Hopefully this "competition" makes him improve to good rex most of the time and OK rex the rest of the time (no Bad Rex). In any event, we will know in a matter of a few weeks. That's true. But his numbers seemed to dip both times after he started to feel like the unchallenged starter again. If Rex does win the competition, the Bears will have to keep the threat of Kyle coming in and taking over for all 16 games this season...
One would hope that the light bulb finally goes on. I know you are a big KO guy, Dennis, but Rex has more talent and upside. It is his downside that scares most off. If we see the downside on a consistant basis, then, yes, we need to go with KO and his dump offs and hope the D can hold the other team down and/or score points.
bubbashucker: Dennis: bubbashucker: "At this stage of his career, Grossman has no excuse not to win the job and display the consistency he should be capable of showing. There is both urgency and opportunity, and players as good as Grossman's promise once suggested take advantage of such situations." I do not think I have read a truer statement than this. If Rex cannot win this battle, then he should be relegated to backup, or worse. He has the talent, he just needs to show the consistnacy. He has also shown the capacity to respond from adversity. He was almost benched in 2006 (Griese started taking 1/2 the snaps after the minny game). He responed with 114, 104, and 80 ratings against STL, TB, and DET. He came in last year after the benching and posted an 80 rating. Not to mention coming back from injury. Hopefully this "competition" makes him improve to good rex most of the time and OK rex the rest of the time (no Bad Rex). In any event, we will know in a matter of a few weeks. That's true. But his numbers seemed to dip both times after he started to feel like the unchallenged starter again. If Rex does win the competition, the Bears will have to keep the threat of Kyle coming in and taking over for all 16 games this season... One would hope that the light bulb finally goes on. I know you are a big KO guy, Dennis, but Rex has more talent and upside. It is his downside that scares most off. If we see the downside on a consistant basis, then, yes, we need to go with KO and his dump offs and hope the D can hold the other team down and/or score points.
For a long time I thought it was just that Rex was a couple of cards short of a deck. But in talking with Coach Z, I'm beginning to realize that the Bears Offense is just all wrong for a QB with Rex's talents. Orton fits the structure of the O better and will probably end up being more successful in a Ron Turner Offense. The best Rex can hope to do long term in our current system is to just survive. He really needs to go to another team with a good receiving corps and more aggessively designed pass plays to fully utilize his talents...
But Rex would do much better in an "Air Coryell" type system - not WCO. It's a more aggressive offense, better suited to Rex's "gunslinger" mentality. It attempts to stretch the field vertically with medium to deep passes. That takes advantage of Rex's quick release, strong arm and good downfield accuracy. The checkdowns go deep to short (like Rex does), in the WCO they tend to go short to deep (like Kyle does). Picks deep downfield are viewed as no worse than a punt. Air Coryell uses big strong linemen to protect the QB and open up lanes for a power run game. In a WCO, the linemen tend to be smaller for better speed and agility.
To me, it just sounds more like Rex's kind of game. Grossman would probably have a more successful career with the Chargers, Dolphins, 49ers, Redskins, or even (god help me) the Lions who are trying to run more "Air Coryell" type systems...
Kyle is no better at throwing short slants than Rex though he should be with his stature. The point was that Turner's O isn't a traditional WC and since when is being able to stretch a field a bad thing? Kyle not being as well suited to the long ball isn't the same as him being better suited to midrange passes. He clearly hasn't been so far. His best ball is a deep slant where touch isn't required and he can rifle it in. A ball Rex is also good at and not really WC either.
bearlythere: Kyle is no better at throwing short slants than Rex though he should be with his stature. The point was that Turner's O isn't a traditional WC and since when is being able to stretch a field a bad thing? Kyle not being as well suited to the long ball isn't the same as him being better suited to midrange passes. He clearly hasn't been so far. His best ball is a deep slant where touch isn't required and he can rifle it in. A ball Rex is also good at and not really WC either.
I'm not really talking about Orton at all here, just Rex. I do believe that Rex has what it takes to succeed as an NFL QB. But Turner's pseudo-WCOish Offense doesn't play to Rex's strengths - a more agressive "Air Coryell" type of Offense that goes to the deep pass first, stresses stretching the field with the deep pass, the pass is used to set up the run is more what Rex should be running. The passing emphasis of "deep first, then look short" just fits his personality much better.
It doesn't really matter (IMO) that Rex might be able to get Turner's system to limp down the field or not. He won't be using his strengths (better deep field vision, strong arm, quick release) enough and he'll be exposing his weaknesses (poorer short field vision, lack of mobility, tendency to risk a pick too often) too much.
For once, I'm not talking about whether or not Kyle is better than Rex or vice versa. Simply what I see as the best way for Rex to succeed in the NFL...
Dennis:But Rex would do much better in an "Air Coryell" type system - not WCO.
But Rex would do much better in an "Air Coryell" type system - not WCO.
Maybe I'm missing a post here but from what I can tell Ron Turner does run a Air Coryell derivative. I imagine he picked it up from his brother and made his own derivative of it. I could have sworn Coach Z agreed with this assessment based on my memory of his posts but someone feel free to correct me here.
The term "West Coast Offense" gets overloaded a lot in the football world. What it really means in its diluted form is either a Coryell type system or a Walsh type system. And even that is still diluted.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/dr_z/news/1999/10/28/inside_football/
"...But that's kid stuff compared to the way I feel about the term "West Coast Offense." I've belabored the subject many times before. But here it comes again, this time keyed by a very interesting conversation I had the other day with the current darling of the offensive coordinator set, St. Louis' Mike Martz, who has put together the NFL's most dynamic attack. We talked about the Real West Coast Offense, the one he coaches.
There are three practitioners of the Real West Coast Offense, three men whose roots go right back to the beginning -- to Sid Gillman of the San Diego Chargers in the 1960s, and before him, Francis (Shut-the-Gates-of-Mercy) Schmidt at Ohio State.
The current trio is composed of Martz, whose offense ranks second in the NFL; Washington's head coach and offensive coordinator Norv Turner , whose attack ranks first, six total yards ahead of Martz's offense; and Ernie Zampese, whose Patriots attack ranks No. 5 in the NFL in yardage. There is a very strong connection here, and it goes back to Gillman...
...It was a beautiful offense that had everything going for it. At times it reached unheard-of levels, such as the 610 yards the Chargers put up when they murdered Boston in the 1963 AFL Championship. Push the ball downfield, work the seams, hit the receiver on the break. Everything timed to the max, every step carefully charted, receivers and QB all working together. And a punishing ground game to back it up...
...But San Diego had another hotshot coach in those days, Don Coryell, working across town at San Diego State, building a succession of fancy records with prospects who'd either slipped through the cracks at USC and UCLA or had been rejected by them. Coryell and his staff were frequent visitors at Gillman's pre-season camp. They loved his offense. They absorbed a lot of it, although Coryell added wrinkles of his own. Two bright young assistants on Coryell's San Diego State staff were Joe Gibbs and Zampese...
..Then Cook went down with a shoulder injury. His career was finished. In came Virgil Carter in 1970 -- smaller, agile, quick-thinking. Carter was able to go through his progressions quickly and throw on the go; not blessed with a big arm, but accurate. So Walsh crafted an offense to suit him, a horizontal offense with a lot of motion and underneath routes and breakoff patterns, an attack that now goes by the misnomer "West Coast Offense..."
bearlythere:That's nonsense. Rex is better for the O Turner wants to run. Turner likes keeping the safeties back the long ball or burning them deep when they cheat the run. For a # of reasons that wasn't doable last year and Orton was just as good in a scaled back O initiated due to lack of protection. What's always been lacking in his play calling is the mid range passing game which is ridiculous for what is supposedly a WC based system. I'd rather they play pro ball and I don't care which guy runs it. I just want a real O.
Philo: bearlythere:That's nonsense. Rex is better for the O Turner wants to run. Turner likes keeping the safeties back the long ball or burning them deep when they cheat the run. For a # of reasons that wasn't doable last year and Orton was just as good in a scaled back O initiated due to lack of protection. What's always been lacking in his play calling is the mid range passing game which is ridiculous for what is supposedly a WC based system. I'd rather they play pro ball and I don't care which guy runs it. I just want a real O.Actually, I think Dennis is correct in this. Turner and Lovie love the run game and the short passes. It's when he tries to go away from his style that he screws up and so does Rex. Rex excelled in the shotgun last year but Turner thinks it's a trick play (his words), not something to use consistantly reguardless of his success.Turner loves to dump off in screens and short passes to the TE's but Rex likes the TE's to run almost WR patterns 10-15 yards down the field.If Turner goes to the two TE set and two backs, it will favor Orton more. That doesn't mean Orton would have good numbers since he still has trouble completing those passes, but it's more of a short game system and that is what Orton chooses to play. to him the deep route is the trick play.
SmellyFoot: Dennis:But Rex would do much better in an "Air Coryell" type system - not WCO. Maybe I'm missing a post here but from what I can tell Ron Turner does run a Air Coryell derivative. I imagine he picked it up from his brother and made his own derivative of it. I could have sworn Coach Z agreed with this assessment based on my memory of his posts but someone feel free to correct me here.